5150 Holds. . .

[B.D.Dubloon]

Sounds like a crazy night .........Was it a full moon???
Sound like a warm up for a bang up 4th of July

I don't know fortunately I don't work back there for a few days. I had to lay hands on two people, and in the under 3 months I've been working their it was only the 4th and 5th time.

[AirflowPimp]

Didnt spend the time to read all the replies, but 5150 holds are for evaluation purposes only. If I recall correctly, they used to have to report them to the DOJ but don't anymore. I think it was '98 or something when they changed the law about that.

The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

When I first started in EMS I transported quite a few BS holds and they were evaluated and released within the hour. I had an S.O. try to put someone on a hold for gravely disabled. It was a 36 y/o female who was walking home from a friends house. She had 3 blocks to go and had already walked 2. She was drunk, but not totally wasted. We showed up, asked him what he was holding her for and he said that she didnt know where she was and didnt know the address of the house she came from, nor the house where she was going. I put her in our unit and started asking her some questions. Keep in mind we were in a tract home subdivision.

me: "do you know where you are?"
her: "i dont know the cross streets here, but i know im in the **** and **** area. (major cross streets)"
me: "do you know where you are coming from?"
her: "my friend ****'s house a few blocks over, but i dont know her address"
me: "do you know where you are going?"
her: "to my house, but i just moved in there a few weeks ago and don't know the address there either. But its only 3 blocks down **** street."
me: "what year is it?"
her: "2008" (was correct)
me: "who is the president?"
her: "bush" (was correct)
me: "so do you want to hurt yourself or others?"
her: "nooooooo, I just want to go home and go to sleep."

So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.

[Fire in the Hole]

Didnt spend the time to read all the replies, but 5150 holds are for evaluation purposes only. If I recall correctly, they used to have to report them to the DOJ but don't anymore. I think it was '98 or something when they changed the law about that.

The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

When I first started in EMS I transported quite a few BS holds and they were evaluated and released within the hour. I had an S.O. try to put someone on a hold for gravely disabled. It was a 36 y/o female who was walking home from a friends house. She had 3 blocks to go and had already walked 2. She was drunk, but not totally wasted. We showed up, asked him what he was holding her for and he said that she didnt know where she was and didnt know the address of the house she came from, nor the house where she was going. I put her in our unit and started asking her some questions. Keep in mind we were in a tract home subdivision.

me: "do you know where you are?"
her: "i dont know the cross streets here, but i know im in the **** and **** area. (major cross streets)"
me: "do you know where you are coming from?"
her: "my friend ****'s house a few blocks over, but i dont know her address"
me: "do you know where you are going?"
her: "to my house, but i just moved in there a few weeks ago and don't know the address there either. But its only 3 blocks down **** street."
me: "what year is it?"
her: "2008" (was correct)
me: "who is the president?"
her: "bush" (was correct)
me: "so do you want to hurt yourself or others?"
her: "nooooooo, I just want to go home and go to sleep."

So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.

And I believe Sir that you are wrong about that point. It's LE that comes into contact with these 5150 paranoid schizos (EDP's) living under bridges. Many of them are violent. Nearly all are uncooperative. Can we call an MD, RN, LCSW, or EMS out at 0300 to crawl unarmed, under this overpass, Dipsey Dumpster, cardboard box etc., to contact the individual to make this evaluation? If so, provide 911 dispatch with your phone number, I will be happy to wait back at the station and let you or the other unarmed, yet highly trained mental health professionals handle it. LEO's would be happy to surrender this responsibility to you from response-contact-evaluation-transportation.

Bear in mind that it was the professional medical workers that wanted out of this "In the field" responsibility in the first place. They petitioned the legislature to make LE the occupation that gets first call to make the eval. LE sure didn't beg for it.

You are also incorrect about LEO's lack of training in this matter as well.

[retired]

The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

AirflowPimp, do you know for a fact that some leos write them out of laziness in not wanting to deal with them or is this your opinion. In this particular example, you went into great detail implying the deputy was lazy, but then said,

To his defense, I think he was newer.

.

Even if you had evidence to prove this, this is not a cop bashing forum and that in fact, is what you are doing, so don't.

[shellyzsweet]

I don't know fortunately I don't work back there for a few days. I had to lay hands on two people, and in the under 3 months I've been working their it was only the 4th and 5th time.

See I don't get why laying hands on people is such a big deal? Is it extra paper work for private security??
Cops, FF's and EMS lay hands on people ALL the time! What am I missing here?? Am I missing something here??

My ex bf used to do security and he talked about "laying hands on people" like it was a huge deal too

[shellyzsweet]

I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.

yea....idk about passing the torch to EMS....its nice to be able to say "look I didn't do this too you and I can help you in this situation."

Its also nice to have a guy with a gun present that the patient/suspect knows can get rougher than we can if need be.....
Plus I see medics writing 5150's as a way for more medics to get hurt or assaulted by pt's. If you take away the cop you will have medics going into bad situations with no backup and no way to defend themselves if the situation goes sour....you can't tell me counties wouldn't skimp on sending LEO back up to every 5150 call.....you know they would EVENTUALLY!

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.

Sounds like they might have been able to go 647(f). Not sure why they would do a 5150 hold.

[CSDGuy]

Cops, Firefighters, and EMS know when they can and can not do what would otherwise be considered battery...

[CSDGuy]

Sounds like they might have been able to go 647(f). Not sure why they would do a 5150 hold.

Maybe not drunk enough...for the (f) but too drunk to let go for agency liability???

[shellyzsweet]

Cops, Firefighters, and EMS know when they can and can not do what would otherwise be considered battery...

not really....ff's and ems at least, cops are different

So if a patient doesn't know whats going on, where they are, when it is and who they are then they are altered....if they are altered and need medical clearance then they go to the hospital. They don't get a choice cause they can't make a cognitive decision...so they go. If they fight, we can restrain, cause we have to take them...its the law. If they try to endanger myself or my partner we can restrain them cause our safety comes first.
Or of course a 5150 is placed we can restrain them

If we restrain someone who doesn't want to go and knows all the correct answers to the questions and isn't on a 5150 hold...that is battery.

But if someone is on a 5150 hold they have lost certain rights as far as going or not going....so if we can restrain a person on a 5150 to take them to a hospital, and the hospital can restrain them while they are there, and the EMT's can restrain them going to the psych facility, and EMT's and hospital staff can attempt to stop the patient from leaving (usually they back down to not get hurt...I know I'll let a psych pt go if I feel like I can't take em and I'm in danger and let PD handle it)
Whats the difference in a security guard at the facility restraining people on 5150 holds???

[shellyzsweet]

come to think of it....private security at hospitals lay hands on people all the time too.....so what is different about when they are in the psych facility itself?

[CSDGuy]

As to the idea of having LEO's out of the 5150 business, IMHO, they SHOULD have some specific case-by-case oversight. They should call-in to an Emergency Psych Doc or an LCSW for the "order" or "OK" to do a 5150. I've met more than one LEO that made it his mission to do a 5150 once per shift...

Otherwise, the 5150 and firearms possession should be completely de-linked. If someone should be too unstable to possess a firearm, they should be committed...formally.

[rg_1111@yahoo.com]

It depends on what Hospital they work at.

Whats the difference in a security guard at the facility restraining people on 5150 holds???

Security officers are trained in this field to restrain.
The Security Officer is there for everyone's safety. Patients,Dr,Nurses, Etc.
At the Hospital I work at Security and the Nurses will restrain the patient with soft restraints first.
Chemical restraints if there fighting the soft.
Once chemical restrained the soft restrains have to come off after 2 hours.

[rg_1111@yahoo.com]

CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.

[shellyzsweet]

I don't know fortunately I don't work back there for a few days. I had to lay hands on two people, and in the under 3 months I've been working their it was only the 4th and 5th time.

It depends on what Hospital they work at.

Whats the difference in a security guard at the facility restraining people on 5150 holds???

Security officers are trained in this field to restrain.
The Security Officer is there for everyone's safety. Patients,Dr,Nurses, Etc.
At the Hospital I work at Security and the Nurses will restrain the patient with soft restraints first.
Chemical restraints if there fighting the soft.
Once chemical restrained the soft restrains have to come off after 2 hours.

um okay, my question is why is restraining people such a big deal to private security??
At least it seems like a big deal to me in my experiences and I don't get why....the above poster made it seem like its a bigger deal to private security rather than ff's and medics who do it all the time and I don't understand why thats all.