Legality of carrying on "private property"

[Findout]

I know this is a subject that has been much-discussed, but I couldn't find anything definitive with a search. Most threads were either too old to be relevant or inconclusive with regards to my situation.

I rent a small warehouse in a commercial complex full of other shops. Most of the other shops are businesses that are open to the public. The parking lot is off the street and is privately owned, but the public has free access to the lot and it is fairly busy. I am not a business, I just use this place as a personal hobby shop for me. I do not allow the public inside, but I do often have my door open, so it is possible to see inside. Occasionally people will walk up to my door to ask me something(like where such and such business is, etc), so I do have fairly regular contact with the public when I have my door open. My question is, what is the legality with regards to carrying, whether open or concealed, in a scenario like this?

You can imagine the spectrum of opinions I have gotten on this one, from one extreme to the other, and the way the laws are written does not definitively clarify it to me(I'm sure by design).

I tend to believe that, as long as I am actually inside my warehouse, I should be able to carry without issue. It would absolutely be possible, in fact likely, for someone to notice that I was carrying if I were to carry openly, but is that illegal? Obviously, if I were to concealed carry inside my warehouse, I'd realistically never have any issue, but of course the penalty is just too great if I'm wrong, so I want to be absolutely sure and informed before I do so.

To add also, I have spoken to the property owners about this matter(to ask for advice as well as to make sure they have no issue with it), and they told me that what I do is my business and they have no problem with it, but I should check into the legality of it first.

Also, is it going to make any difference if I were to carry loaded vs. unloaded, in either carry scenario?

I have been to numerous gun stores in my area that always have one or more employees openly carrying, and I'm assuming they wouldn't be foolish enough to do so were it not legal. These are businesses that are open to the public, so there's no expectation that you'd be out of view of the public or anything like that.

Anyway, sorry if this post is rambling and tedious, I just like to be thorough. Can't be too careful in this state when it comes to firearms!

Thanks all!

[KIMBER8400]

There should be plenty of info here,

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/Cfl2007.pdf?

Page 32

[fizux]

Search for People v. Overturf (1976). There are some other cases out there, but that one seems to be frequently cited.

[Librarian]

If 'carry' is legal, 'loaded carry' is legal.

I rent a small warehouse in a commercial complex full of other shops. Most of the other shops are businesses that are open to the public. The parking lot is off the street and is privately owned, but the public has free access to the lot and it is fairly busy. I am not a business, I just use this place as a personal hobby shop for me. I do not allow the public inside, but I do often have my door open, so it is possible to see inside. Occasionally people will walk up to my door to ask me something(like where such and such business is, etc), so I do have fairly regular contact with the public when I have my door open. My question is, what is the legality with regards to carrying, whether open or concealed, in a scenario like this?

Before embarking on a course with some risk, I recommend you consult your own lawyer, but I'll suggest the scenario you offer - carry inside your rented space - should be legal. Carry to and from your privately controlled space must still follow the unloaded, locked case protocol.

Discussion at the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Un...oncealed_Carry

[Findout]

My confusion comes from the contradictory nature of these two. The law seems to be pretty clear:

..but People v. Overturf seems to contradict the law. It appears to have been misinterpreted.

Part of my concern is the hair-splitting matter with regards to "his or her place of business" not being entirely accurate when explaining my situation. I am not a business, nor am I on property I don't own. I am in a warehouse I rent, but it's not a business, and I don't want to assume that I'd be legal when my situation is not specifically exempted by description.

I'm not sure Overturf is a good example either, as it deals with someone who actually fired a shot in the course of a heated disagreement. That's not going to be an issue if I were to ever face charges. The only way I see it being an issue for me would be if someone passing by noticed I was carrying and called the police to report it. I'm just wondering if there's any case law in a case like mine.

[gblacksmith]

If 'carry' is legal, 'loaded carry' is legal.

Before embarking on a course with some risk, I recommend you consult your own lawyer, but I'll suggest the scenario you offer - carry inside your rented space - should be legal. Carry to and from your privately controlled space must still follow the unloaded, locked case protocol.

Discussion at the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Un...oncealed_Carry

CA law is quite clear that a person not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may possess them in his/her home or place of business. A hobby shop would likely meet the criteria for place of business, whether it is open to the public or not. The acid test would be your right to be there, public access or not. This right would extend to the "curtilage" as well; the area that your activities normally occur in. This might include a common restroom, etc.

[Findout]

If 'carry' is legal, 'loaded carry' is legal.

Before embarking on a course with some risk, I recommend you consult your own lawyer, but I'll suggest the scenario you offer - carry inside your rented space - should be legal. Carry to and from your privately controlled space must still follow the unloaded, locked case protocol.

Discussion at the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Un...oncealed_Carry

Thank you, that looks like a pretty informative page there. My feeling based on reading all of that is that it *should* be theoretically legal. I often have my door open, but I am also diligent about stopping people when they try to walk in uninvited.

I'm going to do some more reading, though. I have this vision in my head of being arrested and charged the very first time I even think about carrying in this manner, and that idea scares the hell out of me, especially since it's so obviously preventable(by not carrying).

[Findout]

CA law is quite clear that a person not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may possess them in his/her home or place of business. A hobby shop would likely meet the criteria for place of business, whether it is open to the public or not. The acid test would be your right to be there, public access or not. This right would extend to the "curtilage" as well; the area that your activities normally occur in. This might include a common restroom, etc.

I agree with you when merely I read the law, I just grow quite concerned when case law comes up with regards to what is considered public vs. private. I think that's the one variable here. I'm concerned that, because the public has free access to the parking lot directly outside my door, my warehouse could be considered public as long as my door is open.

[IAMSWUTIAMS]

Put a sign on your door "private".

[FFASpector]

I have almost an exact replica of this situation. I rent a commercial space with a roll up door in a building with several other business. There is a common parking lot. I am not a business, I just store my toys and keep my machining tools here.

Because my door also remains open, because I work here late at night frequently, and because the smoke shop two doors down has been robbed three times in the last year, I have consulted both the local PD (I know...) as well as my own attorney, who mostly agreed, and can only pass along what they have said about my situation.

1) I can carry, open or concealed, loaded or unloaded (??), anywhere inside the threshold of my space.
2) I cannot carry in the parking lot (without CCW). Rules for public spaces must be followed.
3) PD recommended that I put a chain on the door, to prevent random walk-ups from assuming I'm a business and walking into my space. Attorney said this is not necessary. (I did, seemed like a good idea anyway.)
4) PD said they would rather nobody see it. Lawyer said nobody should ever see it "ready" in my hand, unless I felt like paying him some more $$$.

I've followed these rules for years and had no issues.

[CBR_rider]

I know you rent the space, but can you have a security door with small holes in the metal screen put up? I assume you leave the door open to let in the outside air; this security door would allow the air to circulate, help deter unwanted visitors, keep your toys from prying eyes, and would further cement the fact that your shop is in fact private.

[gblacksmith]

I agree with you when merely I read the law, I just grow quite concerned when case law comes up with regards to what is considered public vs. private. I think that's the one variable here. I'm concerned that, because the public has free access to the parking lot directly outside my door, my warehouse could be considered public as long as my door is open.

If you want to have your door open, I would suggest a strand of chain with a "keep out" or "private" placard attached spanning the opening. The proximity of the parking lot does not change your privacy rights.

However, if you are contemplating carrying a firearm in your place of business, in your case, you should be unequivocal about NOT being open to the public, given the presence of the lot. A barrier and a sign does this nicely.

If you were to be involved in a shooting, any halfway decent robbery/homicide dick would note ALL particulars of your space. Having clear deterrents to entry favors you.

[Findout]

I have almost an exact replica of this situation. I rent a commercial space with a roll up door in a building with several other business. There is a common parking lot. I am not a business, I just store my toys and keep my machining tools here.

Because my door also remains open, because I work here late at night frequently, and because the smoke shop two doors down has been robbed three times in the last year, I have consulted both the local PD (I know...) as well as my own attorney, who mostly agreed, and can only pass along what they have said about my situation.

1) I can carry, open or concealed, loaded or unloaded (??), anywhere inside the threshold of my space.
2) I cannot carry in the parking lot (without CCW). Rules for public spaces must be followed.
3) PD recommended that I put a chain on the door, to prevent random walk-ups from assuming I'm a business and walking into my space. Attorney said this is not necessary. (I did, seemed like a good idea anyway.)
4) PD said they would rather nobody see it. Lawyer said nobody should ever see it "ready" in my hand, unless I felt like paying him some more $$$.

I've followed these rules for years and had no issues.

Thanks.. That's encouraging that your local police saw no issue with this. For what it's worth, I'd always be carrying concealed if I decide to start carrying. I see no reason to show my hand, cause trouble or concern anyone needlessly.

I'm torn on the matter of contacting my local PD about it though. On the one hand, it would be good piece of mind if I get their "approval"(and of course I know it's by no means a legal guarantee), but I also don't see any benefit in letting them know what's going on or putting myself on their radar needlessly.

This has been a helpful thread thus far. Thanks all!

[Findout]

If you want to have your door open, I would suggest a strand of chain with a "keep out" or "private" placard attached spanning the opening. The proximity of the parking lot does not change your privacy rights.

However, if you are contemplating carrying a firearm in your place of business, in your case, you should be unequivocal about NOT being open to the public, given the presence of the lot. A barrier and a sign does this nicely.

If you were to be involved in a shooting, any halfway decent robbery/homicide dick would note ALL particulars of your space. Having clear deterrents to entry favors you.

Good points. I have a piece of bright yellow chain that I use at times when I just don't feel like dealing with people or when I get certain unexplainable funny feelings, but I don't always. I would use it religiously if I started carrying, and would get such a sign for it as well.

[Findout]

I know you rent the space, but can you have a security door with small holes in the metal screen put up? I assume you leave the door open to let in the outside air; this security door would allow the air to circulate, help deter unwanted visitors, keep your toys from prying eyes, and would further cement the fact that your shop is in fact private.

Well, I suppose I should have clarified that I leave my roll up door open often. It gets pretty hot in an uninsulated steel building in the summer without the door open, and the light during the day really helps. It would be pretty impractical to put up a screen or something, but I have had pretty good luck with a chain across the opening thus far.