Training Method

[FireSnake77]

Thanks.

Next time we're at the range we'll practice the CFS reload and then once proficient we'll compare it to ours and see what the clock says. Time is the final arbiter for us in self defense. The drill will be pistol with one round loaded and shooter in compressed ready. Upon command deliver one round, slide lock reload and deliver the next round. We'll look at total time plus time to reload.

Sounds good breda!

FWIW, you may find that mechanically, you might be able to reload faster with other techniques.

If possible, run a figure 8 drill also with multiple targets and randomized commands to take into account processing of information.

Keeping your eyes up might or might not help you reload faster mechanically, but it can increase your ability to assess and process information about what to shoot, where to shoot, how many targets, etc. when those variables are not predetermined or known by the shooter.

Keeping your eyes committed to collecting information and observing the events that are occurring in your proximity can help you accelerate your overall action.

Hope it makes sense,
Mike

[FireSnake77]

Firesnake77
Did you attend Vehicle Engagement Tactics at TFTT in Jan 2012?

Yup. That was me. The *** clown that couldn't shoot for ****, couldn't follow instructions, and had 3 safety violations.

For sake of relevance to training methods, I'll only discuss the safety violations unless someone asks about the other remarks.

First, let me say that I learned to present from the holster while keeping the slide parallel with the body

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPdCGw_C79M&feature=g-upl

The 3 safety violations were:

1. During a step by step rep, flagged my own foot. We were instructed to come up out of the holster, and keep the muzzle pointed down, move forward and around the leg, then rest your elbows on your knees with muzzle pointed down. I habitually started to run parallel with my thigh, then suddenly remembered to point it down, which happened to be by my foot.

2. During a step by step rep, muzzle pointed to the front of the vehicle. Contact east with the vehicle staged facing north, we were instructed to have the driver dismount to the front west side while the passenger moves to the rear. This method has the driver covering north and east and the passenger covering north and east until the passenger moves to cover south and east.

I learned the dismount by having the driver move to the rear to cover south and east, since the passenger will cover east and north then dismount to the front to continue covering north and east. Keeping that habit coupled with keeping the gun parallel with my thigh, my muzzle pointed north after moving from passage side to drivers side, then on exit my muzzle pointed north rather than down towards the floor.

3. Without guns in hand, my index finger pointed forward from the sul position. We were doing a dry run, and I was simulating holding a gun, rather than using "finger guns". From the sul, I simulated keeping my finger on the slide and coupled with the orientation of my body, appeared that my finger muzzle was pointing forward rather than down.

Being Filipino and studying Asian martial arts, I just held myself accountable without opening any discussion.

I have a lot of respect for what Max has done, but I realize now that I could have had a respectable discussion about other ways to do things.

The moral of the story is to have a conversation about what is more efficient, regardless of the amount of respect we might or might not have.

Sincerely,
Mike

[FireSnake77]

FIreSnake77 can you answer my question?

Did you attend Vehicle Engagement Tactics at TFTT in Jan 2012?

yup, sorry for the delay. I wasn't at my computer after 6 PM yesterday, and Im responding from topic to topic as I see them.

Mike

BTW, did I meet you there?

[FireSnake77]

Related comments/question to the discussion at hand:

Given a reasonable level of proficiency, is time the critical factor? Are we measuring the right thing? It seems perhaps not.

I would say yes, but the time of the overall action rather than the isolated action (s).

The most significant delays are cognitive (mentally process unexpected information).
Mike

[ZombieTactics]

^^^ Somehow I knew the end of this line of questioning was going to be an ad-hom attack of some kind.

I'll take note of Mike's professional level of transparency in this regard.

[Kempfer]

Related comments/question to the discussion at hand:

There is a lot of focus on time being the determiner of success in a self-defense scenario. It seems to be a foregone conclusion that .5 seconds here or there is THE THING that will keep you alive or determine the outcome. There are many pithy "gun guy isms" and quotes to this effect, but a slogan is not an argument.

I'm just musing that over in my head and wondering outloud how much sense that really makes. It's (hopefully) well known that people do not automatically crumple in a heap and fall to the ground upon being shot, unless it's a direct CNS hit. People often don't even know that they've been shot for several seconds. There is no immediate loss of capacity unless you hit something very important, and even then it can take many seconds for any effect to take place. Something like 10-15 seconds is pretty common ... in which time a LOT can happen.

So it occurs to me that if I achieve that .5 second advantage, it might not be the most important part of the problem. It's not going to stop anyone from doing whatever they were about to do, unless I am very lucky and very skilled.

Given a reasonable level of proficiency, is time the critical factor? Are we measuring the right thing? It seems perhaps not.

My normal split between good shots are .15-.25 so in half a second I can have 2-3 rounds on target. I think that is game changing enough to warrent an attempt at improving the way you work your gun.

For example Zombietactics1 is .5 seconds faster than Zombietactics2. That means, all other things equal, Zombietactics2 has 2-3 rounds in him before he can even engage Zombietactics1. I'll take that advantage any day.

Is this the caliber of instruction CFS is touting?

Virus, the CFS instructor resumes vary. Some have legit time in the military or law enforcement community. Others like Firesnake and JRV are civillians that got certified and are now training people.

[FireSnake77]

So. You are now a firearms instructor?

3 safety violations

Unable to BZO your long gun.

Drawing an unloaded pistol during two man cover drills more than once.

Inserting an unloaded mag into your gun during live fire drills in an emergency reload.

Unable to shoot an 8" group at 7 yds. Claiming you had just installed new sights, then the instructor called you on it and shot your pistol to prove it wasn't the gun.

Yelled at for bringing a box of ammo to the firing line and have others kick it all over the place because you showed up with only two mags.

Poor basic gun manipulation skills.

Most of the other students assumed you were just a very new and untrained shooter.

I normally could care less about someone else's performance in a class, but now you are representing yourself as a firearms instructor!??

Is this the caliber of instruction CFS is touting?

From rank novice to CFS instructor in less than 1 year! that is amazing!!

It was a bad day. Bad enough to drive a man to obsess over getting better so that kind of day NEVER happens again.

Not only did I continue to pursue instruction, I wanted to get to as high a level as I possibly can, which at this point, I consider it to be a CFS Instructor.

FYI, CFS Instructor course has a 50% fail rate.

Mike
My obsession:
"A master is a student who never quit"

[ramzar]

Related comments/question to the discussion at hand:

There is a lot of focus on time being the determiner of success in a self-defense scenario. It seems to be a foregone conclusion that .5 seconds here or there is THE THING that will keep you alive or determine the outcome. There are many pithy "gun guy isms" and quotes to this effect, but a slogan is not an argument.

I'm just musing that over in my head and wondering outloud how much sense that really makes. It's (hopefully) well known that people do not automatically crumple in a heap and fall to the ground upon being shot, unless it's a direct CNS hit. People often don't even know that they've been shot for several seconds. There is no immediate loss of capacity unless you hit something very important, and even then it can take many seconds for any effect to take place. Something like 10-15 seconds is pretty common ... in which time a LOT can happen.

So it occurs to me that if I achieve that .5 second advantage, it might not be the most important part of the problem. It's not going to stop anyone from doing whatever they were about to do, unless I am very lucky and very skilled.

Given a reasonable level of proficiency, is time the critical factor? Are we measuring the right thing? It seems perhaps not.

You always want to perform as fast, reliably and efficiently as possible with whatever you do in weapons manipulation. Then, balance speed with accuracy for shot delivery. It's a balancing act. For slide lock reload there's an urgency in getting the pistol back up ASAP. Ultimately, you have to practice each method to see what works best for you and then make a personal judgement on the self defense merits of each method. Time is not of the essence always if it interferes with a smooth accurate hit and follow up shots.

[ZombieTactics]

My normal split between good shots are .15-.25 so in half a second I can have 2-3 rounds on target. I think that is game changing enough to warrent an attempt at improving the way you work your gun.

For example Zombietactics1 is .5 seconds faster than Zombietactics2. That means, all other things equal, Zombietactics2 has 2-3 rounds in him before he can even engage Zombietactics1. I'll take that advantage any day.

You always want to perform as fast, reliably and efficiently as possible with whatever you do in weapons manipulation. Then, balance speed with accuracy for shot delivery. It's a balancing act. For slide lock reload there's an urgency in getting the pistol back up ASAP. Ultimately, you have to practice each method to see what works best for you and then make a personal judgement on the self defense merits of each method. Time is not of the essence always if it interferes with a smooth accurate hit and follow up shots.

Both excellent points for further discussion. Gonna think on this awhile from an alternate perspective.

[ZombieTactics]

Its not an attack its the plain truth. ...

No, it's your rendering of the events.

Were the safety violations something specific to the way that particular instructor views "safety"? Was the student trained in alternate protocols? If the answer is yes to either of those questions, the best you can say is "he didn't follow instructions very well".

Not being able to BZO a long gun sure sounds retarded, but has Mike represented himself as a rifle instructor? Perhaps he's just a beginning student in this regard ... is that such a terrible thing? For the record, I know a LOT of very competent people who have "trouble" zero-ing their rifles, if the called-for zero is different from what they are familiar with. I can achieve 50yd/200 BZO very easily, and a standard 100 zero as well. The "Marine Zero" and RIBZ ... not so much. Paul Howe's modified 100-yard zero stumped the hell out of me for a while because I never saw my targets reflect what he shows it should. Am I am an idiot because I can rawk some of those like a boss but struggle with the others?

Here's a quote from Kyle DeFoor about Jason Falla: "The first time I watched him shoot pistol, which I think was during his interview test, I was speechless…..he sucked, he sucked bad. Carbine, no worries. Pistol, sketch." And Jason had something like 12 years in Australian Special Forces at that point. Seems perspective is in order.

Some of what you posted sounds like someone being seriously "inattentive", perhaps having a bad day (we ALL do from time-to-time), but other things (the universally unpardonable sin of bringing a box of ammo to the line! Oh My! Alert the media!) are just snarky and ridiculous.

Perspective is important. Mike has been public with his failings. I expect that this day forward you'll subject yourself to the same kind of "careful observations" from unsympathetic sources, by adding your real name to your sig line and/or a clear photo as your avatar ... instead of sniping from a position of anonymity. Certainly, what's good for the goose ... and if you are so willing to dish it out, certainly you're equally willing to take it?

[elSquid]

Perspective is important. Mike has been public with his failings. I expect that this day forward you'll subject yourself to the same kind of "careful observations" from unsympathetic sources, by adding your real name to your sig line and a clear photo as your avatar ... instead of sniping from a position of anonymity. Certainly, what's good for the goose ... and if you are so willing to dish it out, certainly you're equally willing to take it?

FireSnake77 is presenting himself as a firearms instructor. His background and capabilities seems to be a relevant issue. Good firearms training may save someones life...bad training may get them killed.

If an instructor is forced to shoot ones gun at 7 yards in order to prove that the sights are on...how is that not a warning flag? Not being able to shoot an _8_ inch group at 7 yards on demand? It sounds like he was "that guy" at said course. That doesn't make him a bad guy, but it does sound like he is a novice shooter.

-- Michael

[ZombieTactics]

FireSnake77 is presenting himself as a firearms instructor. His background and capabilities seems to be a relevant issue. Good firearms training may save someones life...bad training may get them killed.

If an instructor is forced to shoot ones gun at 7 yards in order to prove that the sights are on...how is that not a warning flag? Not being able to shoot an _8_ inch group at 7 yards on demand? It sounds like he was "that guy" at said course. That doesn't make him a bad guy, but it does sound like he is a novice shooter.

No doubt, but a LOT can happen in a year.

[ramzar]

That TFTT Vehicle Engagement Tactics (VET) course was on January 14-15, 2012 at Burro Canyon Shooting Park. I know because I wanted to go but was already signed up and attended the Ken Hackathorn & Larry Vickers 1911 Centennial Celebration Class in Chino at the same time.

I'm signed up and will be attending the TFTT Vehicle Engagement Tactics (VET) course on August 11-12, 2012 at Burro Canyon Shooting Park.

I've trained in and around vehicles quite a bit before to know that you have to be very switched on to not muzzle yourself or others.

[elSquid]

No doubt, but a LOT can happen in a year.

My math may not be the best, but Jan 2012 is a half-year ago, no?

Anyways, you are right in that a lot can happen in 6 or so months. A lot can also not happen as well.

-- Michael

[ZombieTactics]

My math may not be the best, but Jan 2012 is a half-year ago, no?

Correction noted.

Anyways, you are right in that a lot can happen in 6 or so months. A lot can also not happen as well.

Yup. Who can say?