Training Method

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

So if officers are trained equally as well regardless if they are on S.W.A.T or just a patrol officer, why aren't all LEO considered S.W.A.T if this ia the case?

I never said that patrol officers are trained as well as SWAT officers. I said that police officers must train for both counter ambush and team tactics. This is common place in modern law enforcement training. SWAT teams are not the only people who use team movements in law enforcement. Who do you think responds to an active shooter first? Who do you think searches for the suspect during a burglary? Who do you think searches for a suspect in yards and other open areas within a perimeter? Who do you think handles robberies in progress? Who do you think conducts high risk traffic stops? You know that there are specific tactics for those situations don't you?. We don't call SWAT every time we look for a suspect.

In my agency we are trained in these tactics by our SWAT team.

Next time you conduct a training class with patrol officers, ask them about it.

[ramzar]

Your rationale appears to be little more than "these guys are awesome because I like them", and I am trying to get you to give me some reasons or something less subjective by which to judge your opinion. I am assuming from your comments that you've trained with all of them. That's a pretty impressive accomplishment, and I'd like to learn something from you if possible.

Simply repeating "these guys are great and I like them" (by whatever terms used) isn't helping.

I try a GREAT variety of firearms training. Ever since I started adding both competition and some of these "awesome" instructors (Fall 2010) I have expanded my skills in marksmanship, weapons handling, mindset and tactics.

Before that I was limiting my horizon too much with some great local outfits (ITTS, TFTT) and some not so (ADE, SI). Since June 2010 I started with many more outfits: FOG, Chris Costa, TAC-1, Blackwater, Jason Falla, Jeff Gonzales, Rob Haught, Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, TigerSwan, Mike Pannone, Pat McNamara, Northern Red. Also, a few more local ones: Covered 6, FTA, PTS, DTC, TASC. All of these I have actually taken classes with. The weapons handling and marksmanship training with the Tier 1 instructors (great operators in addition to firearms training of other operators) has been extremely valuable in improving my skills. Many have taught hundreds upon hundreds of civilians and LE in addition to regular military and SF units. I get great feedback and diagnostics from these guys.

I'll be trying another local one this month: Mossie Tactics. In September my first class with Kyle Defoor. In October my first class with Frank Proctor. Next year Rob Pincus, Kyle Lamb, Paul Howe, etc.

I have no preconceived prejudice against firearms outfits nor instructors unless there's corroborative evidence of sub-par instruction, instructor's shady background and most importantly safety (case in point TR's use of photographer downrange kneeling next to the targets being shot at).

I have tried to write up AARs as much as possible. You can search for them on CalGuns: http://www.google.com/search?q=ramza...te:calguns.net

[JRV]

Next time you conduct a training class with patrol officers, ask them about it.

I could always ask a few of my best friends who teach for the agencies they work for. I also have watched plenty of agencies train the tactics they use.

That is besides the point, I'm trying to have a healthy exchange of information not argue.

I think firesnake' point was a patrol officer should spend a lot of time on counter ambush because every call isn't high speed and violent.

Can we agree on that?

A DV or traffic spot might have some anticipation of the need to shoot, but I think the officer is going to be reacting to an action or stimuli. If you aren't hunting (example serving a warrant as an example) the need to shoot is going to be reactive. So counter ambush training seems like a great thing to spend a lot of your training time on.

[ramzar]

"Tier 1" has been mentioned, but it's pretty well known that even "tier one" units don't train much with pistols, and generally don't use them much in battle except as a backup.

That's utter poppycock. You obviously have not talked to some of the recent Tier 1 operators. Some of the best pistol shots I've ever seen are Delta guys.

[JRV]

LMAO @ Tier 1 guys don't train much with pistols.

Do you realize how you come across? Three people in my course this weekend who I have NEVER met before were talking about how you added nothing constructive, how you ignored post that made sense you couldn't talk ish about and hid like a child behind his big brother (example: no pic, no talk of your background or even who you are) 3 students opinions on you NOT mine. All had nothing positive to say about you, kinda like your post in general. 25+ students 9 who visit Calguns and 3 who went on a tangent about you.

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

I could always ask a few of my best friends who teach for the agencies they work for. I also have watched plenty of agencies train the tactics they use.

That is besides the point, I'm trying to have a healthy exchange of information not argue.

I think firesnake' point was a patrol officer should spend a lot of time on counter ambush because every call isn't high speed and violent.

Can we agree on that?

A DV or traffic spot might have some anticipation of the need to shoot, but I think the officer is going to be reacting to an action or stimuli. If you aren't hunting (example serving a warrant as an example) the need to shoot is going to be reactive. So counter ambush training seems like a great thing to spend a lot of your training time on.

You and I have established that we do not agree on a lot of things and that is fine. Our last discussion ended amicably and I too, would like to keep it that way.

I know the point that firesnake was trying to make. I believe that it was an over simplification of the training required for a police officer.

I do agree with you that it is very important to train for counter ambush tactics. I will add that I employ both counter ambush tactics and team tactics during every shift. I do not need to respond to a known "high speed and violent" call to use team tactics or take steps to prevent being ambushed.

I will also add that most team encounters with a suspect will still involve reacting to the action or stimuli of said suspect. This is less likely to be an ambush situation because the officers will already be employing their weapons (lethal and less lethal), but officers must train for as many scenarios as possible. Searching for an active shooter would be closest to a "hunting" scenario and would be less reactive.

The point I am trying to make is that if police primarily focus their training on counter ambush tactics and neglect team tactics, it will be very difficult for officers to work together (with proper tactics) in many of the situations that we face every shift.

[JRV]

You and I have established that we do not agree on a lot of things and that is fine. Our last discussion ended amicably and I too, would like to keep it that way.

I know the point that firesnake was trying to make. I believe that it was an over simplification of the training required for a police officer.

I do agree with you that it is very important to train for counter ambush tactics. I will add that I employ both counter ambush tactics and team tactics during every shift. I do not need to respond to a known "high speed and violent" call to use team tactics or take steps to prevent being ambushed.

I will also add that most team encounters with a suspect will still involve reacting to the action or stimuli of said suspect. This is less likely to be an ambush situation because the officers will already be employing their weapons (lethal and less lethal), but officers must train for as many scenarios as possible. Searching for an active shooter would be closest to a "hunting" scenario and would be less reactive.

The point I am trying to make is that if police primarily focus their training on counter ambush tactics and neglect team tactics, it will be very difficult for officers to work together (with proper tactics) in many of the situations that we face every shift.

We actually agree on the concepts but are disagreeing because how we are articulating the details.

[ZombieTactics]

... That's utter poppycock. You obviously have not talked to some of the recent Tier 1 operators. ...

So now not even Tier 1 operators are "good enough" ... they have to be "recent Tier 1 operators"? I'm confused ... you earlier defined the phrase as being a "term of endearment". Does this mean you recently had to have liked them?

Yes, I'm being snarky now, but trust me it's meant in a good-natured way. I like you, I just don't have any idea what you are talking about anymore, and I don't think it's all my fault. Every July 4th for the past 3 years I've been at a picnic table absolutely crawling with high-speed, low-drag military types, and usually a couple of people with stars on their collars. I'll admit that some of them weren't deployed last week. If you want to make it up here next year, I'll save you a spot at the table. You can ask them the same questions I do, and hopefully have the good sense not to tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.

[ramzar]

So now not even Tier 1 operators are "good enough" ... they have to be "recent Tier 1 operators"? I'm confused ... you earlier defined the phrase as being a "term of endearment". Does this mean you recently had to have liked them?

Yes, I'm being snarky now, but trust me it's meant in a good-natured way. I like you, I just don't have any idea what you are talking about anymore, and I don't think it's all my fault. Every July 4th for the past 3 years I've been at a picnic table absolutely crawling with high-speed, low-drag military types, and usually a couple of people with stars on their collars. I'll admit that some of them weren't deployed last week. If you want to make it up here next year, I'll save you a spot at the table. You can ask them the same questions I do, and hopefully have the good sense not to tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.

More attempts at nitpicking, subterfuge and misdirection.

Are you doubting that every Tier 1 operator (Delta & DevGru) is an expert pistol marksman or are you saying that because they're so good they don't need to train?

Your quote below:

"Tier 1" has been mentioned, but it's pretty well known that even "tier one" units don't train much with pistols, and generally don't use them much in battle except as a backup.

[ZombieTactics]

More attempts at nitpicking, subterfuge and misdirection.

I don't think it's "nitpicking" to accept your definition of a term and then use it as such.

Are you doubting that every Tier 1 operator (Delta & DevGru) is an expert pistol marksman or are you saying that because they're so good they don't need to train?

So now "Tier 1" is Delta & DEVGRU, and not just people you like? Are you sure you aren't the one engaging in subterfuge and misdirection? Is everyone on your previous "Tier 1" list a recent Delta or DEVGRU operator? That "recent" thing seemed to be important a moment ago. Color me confused, but please give me something better than your ever-changing definitions of what exactly it is we are discussing.

As for "expert pistol marksman" ... my father-in-law earned that official badge when he was in the Navy. He doesn't know crap about employing a pistol for self defense, so I have no trouble believing that Delta & DEVGRU are far beyond that that level. Did you mean something else? Am I wrong to think that "expert" means - for people in the military - exactly what the military says it means, or do you have a special definition for that too?

How 'bout you stop employing "nitpicking, subterfuge and misdirection", and then you can complain about me doing it.

[ramzar]

I don't think it's "nitpicking" to accept your definition of a term and then use it as such.

So now "Tier 1" is Delta & DEVGRU, and not just people you like? Are you sure you aren't the one engaging in subterfuge and misdirection? Is everyone on your previous "Tier 1" list a recent Delta or DEVGRU operator? That "recent" thing seemed to be important a moment ago. Color me confused, but please give me something better than your ever-changing definitions of what exactly it is we are discussing.

As for "expert pistol marksman" ... my father-in-law earned that official badge when he was in the Navy. He doesn't know crap about employing a pistol for self defense, so I have no trouble believing that Delta & DEVGRU are up to that level. Did you mean something else? Am I wrong to think that "expert" means - for people in the military - exactly what the military says it means, or do you have a special definition for that too?

How 'bout you stop employing "nitpicking, subterfuge and misdirection", and then you can complain about me doing it.

If you had read carefully and not jumped to your usual out of context conclusions you would've seen that I said "Tier 1 operator" and NOT "Tier 1 instructor". The former is specific while the latter is a general term. Surprised you're not privy to such knowledge.

Are you seriously comparing the generic Navy "expert pistol marksman" to the pistol proficiency of a Tier 1 operator? Just wow!

Have you taken any courses with the list of Tier 1 instructors I posted? Again, if not, then you have no point of reference to talk about these instructors versus those you have. Attending a class as an observer is only part of the story. You have to participate fully as a bona fide student and allow the instructor to give you proper feedback and diagnosis.

[ZombieTactics]

If you had read carefully and not jumped to your usual out of context conclusions you would've seen that I said "Tier 1 operator" and NOT "Tier 1 instructor". The former is specific while the latter is a general term. Surprised you're not privy to such knowledge.

Sorry that I can't track the ever changing saga "Tier 1". maybe if you'd keep your story straight it would help us mere peasants understand.

Are you seriously comparing the generic Navy "expert pistol marksman" to the pistol proficiency of a Tier 1 operator? Just wow!

You use the term "expert pistol marksman" in reference to military personnel, and I am wrong to think that might mean exactly what the military means by that designation? Just wow indeed!

Have you taken any courses with the list of Tier 1 instructors I posted?

I don't even think half your list qualifies as "Tier 1" within the ever changing definition of that phrase. What's a "Tier 1" instructor again? ... an instructor you like, or an instructor who trains people you like, or someone who trains Delta/DEVGRU guys, or someone who is an instructor who happened to be Delta/DEVGRU ... recently?

Again, if not, then you have no point of reference to talk about these instructors versus those you have.

Jeez, we're back to this? If I see someone do something, I can certainly say "hey he does that" And then he explains it, and I can say to myself "oh that's his explanation". Granted I'll be absent the experience of working some particular skill under careful direction, but that's not having "no point of reference". What you are saying - once again - is that somehow the mystical "experience" of having "Cool Gun Guy" tell me something in person imparts it with a mystical glow of awesomeness? This cult like hero worship gets tiring. I am in personal contact with a couple of people on your list, and they don't give me half the crap for the questions I raise that you do. One is actually incorporating a suggestion of mine in his future civilian courses. I don't know what to make of that, but perhaps the experience of actually talking with them doesn't give me a point of reference either?

Dude, I think we're just talking past each other. I don't want to be your enemy, but I don't think we're getting anywhere here. I find a lot of your posts informative and useful. I enjoy your perspective. We're just not gonna get anywhere here, as we are approaching the subject from two entirely different perspectives.

[ramzar]

Sorry that I can't track the ever changing saga "Tier 1". maybe if you'd keep your story straight it would help us mere peasants understand.

You use the term "expert pistol marksman" in reference to military personnel, and I am wrong to think that might mean exactly what the military means by that designation? Just wow indeed!

I don't even think half your list qualifies as "Tier 1" within the ever changing definition of that phrase. What's a "Tier 1" instructor again? ... an instructor you like, or an instructor who trains people you like, or someone who trains Delta/DEVGRU guys, or someone who is an instructor who happened to be Delta/DEVGRU ... recently?

Jeez, we're back to this? If I see someone do something, I can certainly say "hey he does that" And then he explains it, and I can say to myself "oh that's his explanation". Granted I'll be absent the experience of working some particular skill under careful direction, but that's not having "no point of reference". What you are saying - once again - is that somehow the mystical "experience" of having "Cool Gun Guy" tell me something in person imparts it with a mystical glow of awesomeness? This cult like hero worship gets tiring. I am in personal contact with a couple of people on your list, and they don't give me half the crap for the questions I raise that you do. I don't know what to make of that, but perhaps the experience of actually talking with them doesn't give me a point of reference either?

You're pretty much null and void from my perspective as an authority on firearms training. Personally, you were already tainted by so vehemently defending the outfit in that Safe to have photographer downrange? thread where you were convinced it was safe lacking credible rational and being in the 9% minority viewpoint.

[Moto]

You kids shouldn't play so rough, somebody's gonna start crying.

First: I fricken hate code names... seriously, Mike "Firesnakeeater77" or whatever? It took me half a page to figure out who the hell you were...

Second: What is the point here? Did someone have a question about what a vehicle tactics course has to do with teaching intuitive defensive shooting skills? Maybe, I can clear that up:

Nothing.

Did someone want to know what having the personal integrity to see one's own weaknesses as motivation to get better might have to do with the ability to teach others and motivate them to improve?

Maybe Everything.

*********

Was there anything else going on besides male genitalia measuring ??

Didn't think so...

*********

All of you should take a Time Out and think about why you come to this forum and why you are supposed to be discussing these topics... including "my guys".
(Except maybe HK35, who seems to have a good idea what the hell he was talking about, assuming he wasn't just trying to bust balls and sound like a know-it-all.).

-RJP

Now this guy, I like!

[ramzar]

Dude, I think we're just talking past each other. I don't want to be your enemy, but I don't think we're getting anywhere here. I find a lot of your posts informative and useful. I enjoy your perspective. We're just not gonna get anywhere here, as we are approaching the subject from two entirely different perspectives.

I stopped subscribing to the hate concept a long time ago. Too much negative energy and humanity's biggest downfall! I don't consider you an enemy. Never. However, I'm extremely mindful of what you say and in certain areas you're null and void until you're rehabilitated.