Training Method

[JRV]

Seemingly, CFS wants to keep their eyes on the threat at all times and perform any necessary weapon manipulation in compressed ready. So, chamber check is done only by feel? What about malfunctions that are not fixed by the tap/rack/assess diagnostic? On reload how do you navigate the spare magazine across heavy clothing and combat gear?

Chamber check? If you're unsure it's loaded tap rack.

Malfunction? Click Tap & Rack if that doesn't fix it you go into linear NON-diagnostic malfunction drill. Tap rack, no fix. Lock back (if needed most modern guns no need to lock back) Rip the mag out Rack, rack go into a reload.

In a video I posted earlier it was stated follow your body with the mag into the gun to reload.



No need to look at the gun to clear a malfunction or to reload.

Here's a video of STUDENTS doing the non-diagnostic linear malfunction drill. Notice they have their eyes TAPED OVER

http://youtu.be/Xi4PlDXzzxM

Does that clarify your question? Not being sarcastic BTW

[ramzar]

Someone said that instruction is what you receive. Training is what you do to try to master than instruction. Most of the time, students try to do it alone, which is not really the best way. You need a partner to critique you and push you forward.

Bruce Gray talks about the "goal oriented shooter" vesus the "process oriented shooter." I'm the latter. I try to perform each step in the process as perfectly as possible. I'm not concerned about the end result. Over the past 15 years my mechanics have improved around 200%, but my mindset is 1000% better.

I've been fortunate to have been trained by some outstanding instructors. Even better, I've trainied alongside some outstanding shooters, who forced me to kick it up a notch. Not to brag, but I'm easily within the top two or three shooters in my agency (300+ officers across the country.) Do I have more to learn, absolutely. I'm not necessarily the fastest or most accurate, but I have a very good balance of the two, and I have superior mindset...I don't care what score I shoot for qual. I strive for to perfect the process. You never stop learning or trying new things. You can always learn something from somebody, the good and the bad.

You have to practice/train a course of instruction some you could do alone but with a partner it's grand. For instance, just the past couple of months we started to test what works better for the individual. For better we sometimes see physiology wins but most often we score it for speed and accuracy. These included one round from various ready positions, support hand draw and slide release methods. We use a minimum of five per and average it out. Not only are you practicing to know what works best for you personally but you're also practicing all the other methods to stay proficient in them. Another training is setting up courses of fire and setting up the partner's magazines with no more than 10 rounds 2 of which are dummy rounds.

USM0083, When you talk about always striving to get the processes down as perfectly as possible I call it consistency. I think it's the most important factor setting shooters apart.

I also always learn from the good, the bad and even the ugly...

[JRV]

You have to practice/train a course of instruction some you could do alone but with a partner it's grand. For instance, just the past couple of months we started to test what works better for the individual. For better we sometimes see physiology wins but most often we score it for speed and accuracy. These included one round from various ready positions, support hand draw and slide release methods. We use a minimum of five per and average it out. Not only are you practicing to know what works best for you personally but you're also practicing all the other methods to stay proficient in them. Another training is setting up courses of fire and setting up the partner's magazines with no more than 10 rounds 2 of which are dummy rounds.

USM0083, When you talk about always striving to get the processes down as perfectly as possible I call it consistency. I think it's the most important factor setting shooters apart.

I also always learn from the good, the bad and even the ugly...

Frequent realistic practice is key. I tell student think as a training course as down payment you need to train on your own to make the monthly payments to own the skills.

[ramzar]

Chamber check? If you're unsure it's loaded tap rack.

Malfunction? Click Tap & Rack if that doesn't fix it you go into linear NON-diagnostic malfunction drill. Tap rack, no fix. Lock back (if needed most modern guns no need to lock back) Rip the mag out Rack, rack go into a reload.

In a video I posted earlier it was stated follow your body with the mag into the gun to reload.

No need to look at the gun to clear a malfunction or to reload.

Here's a video of STUDENTS doing the non-diagnostic linear malfunction drill. Notice they have their eyes TAPED OVER

Ok.

You say "follow your body with the mag into the gun to reload". You don't find that difficult with heavy clothing and chest rigs?

No video included.

[JRV]

Ok.

You say "follow your body with the mag into the gun to reload". You don't find that difficult with heavy clothing and chest rigs?

No video included.

No I have had military, LEO & contractors do it without an issue. Here's a video from Down Range Firearms Training also newly active CFS instructors demoing the critical incident reload.

http://youtu.be/zzjC-b4TfjI

I also attached a different video above.

[ramzar]

No I have had military, LEO & contractors do it without an issue. Here's a video from Down Range Firearms Training also newly active CFS instructors demoing the critical incident reload.

http://youtu.be/zzjC-b4TfjI

I also attached a different video above.

Thanks.

Next time we're at the range we'll practice the CFS reload and then once proficient we'll compare it to ours and see what the clock says. Time is the final arbiter for us in self defense. The drill will be pistol with one round loaded and shooter in compressed ready. Upon command deliver one round, slide lock reload and deliver the next round. We'll look at total time plus time to reload.

[JRV]

Thanks.

Next time we're at the range we'll practice the CFS reload and then once proficient we'll compare it to ours and see what the clock says. Time is the final arbiter for us in self defense. The drill will be pistol with one round loaded and shooter in compressed ready. Upon command deliver one round, slide lock reload and deliver the next round. We'll look at total time plus time to reload.

Cool.

[Kempfer]

Loading the gun while maintaining awareness of target. You only need to watch the explanation and that is where the link starts. Loading, same principle but non-standard body position.

I think all is good with the no-look reloads when things are normal. I have my doubts you will have the same results when real life happens. Like when you move or shoot from different positions, mags coming out of strange places, basically when stuff happens and it does.

In the video JRV linked the guy closest to the camera was a rock star until real life happens, i.e. His plan went out the window. He pulled his last mag out of his pocket rather than the holster and he fumbled the mag.

I find it strange to promote a no look reload when the chance to fumble is worse than if you look at the magwell. The only argument I could see is you lose sight of your target but you don't because its in the peripheral so you can see where it is going and if it is getting closer.

[Kempfer]

Thanks.

Next time we're at the range we'll practice the CFS reload and then once proficient we'll compare it to ours and see what the clock says. Time is the final arbiter for us in self defense. The drill will be pistol with one round loaded and shooter in compressed ready. Upon command deliver one round, slide lock reload and deliver the next round. We'll look at total time plus time to reload.

Try some different shooting positions as well.

[JRV]

Loading the gun while maintaining awareness of target. You only need to watch the explanation and that is where the link starts. Loading, same principle but non-standard body position.

I think all is good with the no-look reloads when things are normal. I have my doubts you will have the same results when real life happens. Like when you move or shoot from different positions, mags coming out of strange places, basically when stuff happens and it does.

In the video JRV linked the guy closest to the camera was a rock star until real life happens, i.e. His plan went out the window. He pulled his last mag out of his pocket rather than the holster and he fumbled the mag.

I find it strange to promote a no look reload when the chance to fumble is worse than if you look at the magwell. The only argument I could see is you lose sight of your target but you don't because its in the peripheral so you can see where it is going and if it is getting closer.

It's not about promotion. It's about what works. The guy went through how many malfunctions and reloads WITH HIS EYES TAPED OVER? Point being students being exposed to the concept for the first time. Not instructors showing how awesome they are.

[Kempfer]

Well the individual in the video went through 3 reloads and one fumbled so it worked 66.7% of the time. But that really isn't a point I want to make.

"Muscle memory" is great for when everything is like you practiced, but I feel like something as important as getting the magazine into the magwell needs to be the best it can be. Looking at your magwell is a more robust method (useable under any circumstance provide you have vision) than the no-look method. I think there are situations when you may end up in a position where your muscle memory won't be enough to guide the magazine in without fumbling it.

[JRV]

Well the individual in the video went through 3 reloads and one fumbled so it worked 66.7% of the time. But that really isn't a point I want to make.

"Muscle memory" is great for when everything is like you practiced, but I feel like something as important as getting the magazine into the magwell needs to be the best it can be. Looking at your magwell is a more robust method (useable under any circumstance provide you have vision) than the no-look method. I think there are situations when you may end up in a position where your muscle memory won't be enough to guide the magazine in without fumbling it.

It worked that well for someone who never trained that method. Hmmm go figure.

[ramzar]

Try some different shooting positions as well.

Every time we're at the range we run the IDPA Classifier because it contains so much: 7, 10, 15 & 20 yards. Multiple targets, Failure drill, El Presidente, strong hand only, support hand only, moving forward & back while shooting, barricade, kneeling, etc. More often than not we also run the 10-8 pistol test all at 7 yards.

Need to do more kneeling, supine and prone shooting.

[FireSnake77]

I can agree, to a certain extent, but some of the stuff you teach is of dubious value.

I refer specifically to the video Mike/Firesnake77 posted.

Some of concepts I see in the video make sense (offline drills during reload) but the implementation is terrible, IMO.

The shooters are dancing all over the place doing multiple shots and multiple reloads. I can't see what kind of hits they are getting, but I have trouble seeing the value in this drill (the way it's run.)

The female at the end displays bad stance, grip and trigger control. Since the camera is at her 3:00, we don't don't what she's shooting at or how effective her shots are. Just looking at her muzzle, there is very little trigger control or follow through.

This is my opinion as a professional LE instructor. Take it for what you will...

When I watched that video, I immediately thought about American Defense Enterprises.

Hey USM,

First, let me specify that the main point of the video is that you don't HAVE to look at your reload.

Second, No worries. Our training looks like crazy face to most people.

First, let me say the only shooting in motion drill we do is to create space from a contact threat.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=426671690717276&set=a.426671587383953.110503.262414053809708&type=3&theater

The other rare circumstance is suppressive fire. Other than those mentioned, lateral movement comes to a stop at some time before pressing the trigger.

Not only do we get off the "x" during a reload, we also get off the "x" when we recognize a 2nd or more targets.

We are assuming that by shooting our first target, the second target is zeroing in, moving, and doing something other than being inanimate.

The lateral movement also increases some level of precision by extending forward towards the target rather than swinging left to right from one target to the next. Although it is faster to swing left to right from one target to the next, since there is no bio-mechanical lock to control momentum there is a chance of over-swing especially. Lateral movement and forward extension towards the target takes away lateral deviation of the muzzle.

We minimize pre-determined variables to develop the recognition of indicators as they occur unexpectedly.

By loading magazines 30%-40%, there is minimal predictability of when you will reach slide lock. Instead, the partial inertia of slide-lock at a random moment becomes the recognizable stimulus. This reduces cognitive delays when you reach slide lock unexpectedly.

In regards to multiple strings of fire, the number of shots it takes to stop a threat is unknown. So the strings of fire are randomized to prevent the habit of a patterned or per-determined string of fire.

The female at the end did have the habit of squeezing her grip. But her posture is what we teach:

-Lowered center of gravity congruent with what the body naturally does when startled. In her case, she has trained in Choy Lay Fut and is used to dropping into a low horse stance.

-Shoulders in front of the hips with arms at full extension. This creates a bio-mechanical lock in the elbows while reducing degrees of freedom of movement in the shoulders. This kinetic chain increases recoil management. In her case, her wrist tension was the weak link.

-In and parallel with the line of sight. In plausible shooting distances for personal defense, you don't need to look at your sights. Target is sharp, sights are blurry.

Here is an explanation of when to use unsighted and sighted fire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KujB4aqPT8&feature=g-upl

Hope that helps clear things up a bit,
Mike

[ZombieTactics]

Related comments/question to the discussion at hand:

There is a lot of focus on time being the determiner of success in a self-defense scenario. It seems to be a foregone conclusion that .5 seconds here or there is THE THING that will keep you alive or determine the outcome. There are many pithy "gun guy isms" and quotes to this effect, but a slogan is not an argument.

I'm just musing that over in my head and wondering outloud how much sense that really makes. It's (hopefully) well known that people do not automatically crumple in a heap and fall to the ground upon being shot, unless it's a direct CNS hit. People often don't even know that they've been shot for several seconds. There is no immediate loss of capacity unless you hit something very important, and even then it can take many seconds for any effect to take place. Something like 10-15 seconds is pretty common ... in which time a LOT can happen.

So it occurs to me that if I achieve that .5 second advantage, it might not be the most important part of the problem. It's not going to stop anyone from doing whatever they were about to do, unless I am very lucky and very skilled.

Given a reasonable level of proficiency, is time the critical factor? Are we measuring the right thing? It seems perhaps not.