Powder Coated Bullet Data Thread

[thenodnarb]

Powder coat doesn't run. Although I have seen it do weird things when a non stick baking grease is applied to the tray. Nothing that hurts the bullet though. If you pick your bullets out at the right time while it is cooling, the additional powder coat, if grease is applied to the tray, should flake off leaving a relatively clean tray for the next batch. Any remaining residue can supposedly be burned off with a torch.
If the hole was smaller in the tray, I don't think the bullet would stay upright without falling over. They were loose enough with the size hole I was using already. I've considered a slightly bigger hole so that they can rest easily on the driving band leaving the whole bottom coated but not the top. This might be fine, but on some rifles even that part of the bullet is pressed into the rifling slightly.

Someone out there is going to invent a perfect simple jig that allows total coverage when spraying without tedious setup. Then that will simply be the way its done. I know there is the tumbling method but so far that leaves inconsistently covered bullets. I've seen jigs that hold the bullets in the lube groove by wires appropriately spaced, but like the pin method above, the jigs can't hold a significant amount of bullets in the jig and also fit in a small toaster oven space. As long as you are using gas checks, my method above works fine when the bullet is pressed into the jig in the gas check area. The gas check covers the exposed lead and gives the bullet a flat base. I suppose spraying twice is an option but that kinda kills the whole spray once bake once advantage that spraying has.

One idea I had was dissolving the ridge of the powder coated area when the bullet was upside down with chemicals. But that is probably a nasty and unhealty process. But as I'm typing this, I'm considering another process: What if each bullet tip was dipped into crisco or something slightly past the area where it sits into the jig. Then load the bullets into the jig and spray and bake. When the bullets come out, the powder coat fillet that forms shouldn't be able to stick to the bullet because of the crisco. Now the powder coat is still connected to the bullet via the coat of powder, but it might be easily brushed off and broken right at the line of where you applied the crisco. Hmmm...I'll have to do a test run of this...

[bruce381]

not being a jerk but the whole point of PC boolits is to save money, time over putting on a GC no?

[stilly]

Short Answer: Apples to oranges comparison, so NO. That is incorrectly stated for the most part because GC does 1 thing. PC does many things AND IS STILL CHEAPER in the long run. Plus, what do gas checks cost? $20-$35 per 2000? PC costs me about 10.00 for blue and I have used about a table spoon or so of it on about 1500 bullets. I expect to coat about 30k bullets or more with my powder.

My long answer:
I do not do gas checks. It is my understanding that gas checks are for lead bullets so that they keep the gasses behind the bullet to prevent it from hitting the sides and causing leading. In my case, my Deagle can NOT shoot exposed lead and the same for Glox. BUT, in my case exactly, lead will get shaved off into the gas system and clog it thus giving me a single shot gun until I spend $500 for a new barrel. Gas check or NOT, I can not run an exposed lead bullet in my barrel. Perhaps I am wrong. But in any event, evidence so far has pointed out that a PC allows a bullet to go FASTER with NO leading and since they are coated they do not rub lead off on your hands. They are SAFE for condors to eat (I fed one to my condor that I have in the back and he passed it 5 times- SAME bullet even...) and they keep exposure of lead down to a minimum so THAT is why I PC bullets. PLUS, there is the zany fun factor that they bring to the table when you whip out a serious looking gun at the range that folks are eyeballing and then you whip out glow in the dark hunter green bullets or hot pink... Call me nutty, but THAT is why I do PC. But really, if I could cast my own LEAD bullets and PC them and then shoot them in my Deagle, then my money invested has just saved me a lot of money. Now I get to make bullets that match my gun finish...

The total time that you need to invest in doing PC is really maybe around 1/2hr per every 500 or so bullets. Not much time at all really, you load up the oven if need be, walk away and do something else. swap out clean for lubed, fire up the oven again and walk out for another 25 minutes. Etc. the LT bath takes about a minute to thirty seconds or so hand tumbling to get them all coated and wet. After that the rest of the steps are rather simple too. You do not have to do it all at once. You can do a step or two and go do something else and return later on.

The reason why some folks want to PC WILL VARY and are all over the place.

[nothing4u]

Which powder coat gun kit are you guys using? At the moment I want to just coat small parts. If my lead cast bullets with lube don't work out well then I can double dip.

[hermosabeach]

Would copper anti seize compount conduct electricity so that you could apply a dab on the base of the bullet, set them onto an aluminum pan, spray them and bake them?

You would need enough of a dab to hold the bullet off of the pan so overspray would not build up on the base....

[stonefly-2]

well if powder coat doesn't run can we assume that the buildup is by virtue of electrical attraction of the metal base that the bullets are nested into?
would insulation be the solution? perhaps 10mil. sheet of plastic layed over the metal base with matching hole pattern. the pc could never contact the metal base.
or another variation, you could nest the bullets in a more rigid plastic grid of holes with a bed of steel wool underneath to provide the elec. continuity.
both these would require the bullets being removed from plastic before baking of course. to what degree can sprayed bullets be handled prior to baking? and how would you rejig them for baking?
perhaps it's new technique that's needed. when spraying the bullets (nose down in this example) do you have enough spray control to concentrate on bases and body of the bullet to where you just ensure you have coating on the part of the bullet that actually contacts rifling? "stay off the shoulder as an elk hunter would say" it wouldn't look as cool but i think i could get over that.

[meaty-btz]

well if powder coat doesn't run can we assume that the buildup is by virtue of electrical attraction of the metal base that the bullets are nested into?
would insulation be the solution? perhaps 10mil. sheet of plastic layed over the metal base with matching hole pattern. the pc could never contact the metal base.
or another variation, you could nest the bullets in a more rigid plastic grid of holes with a bed of steel wool underneath to provide the elec. continuity.
both these would require the bullets being removed from plastic before baking of course. to what degree can sprayed bullets be handled prior to baking? and how would you rejig them for baking?
perhaps it's new technique that's needed. when spraying the bullets (nose down in this example) do you have enough spray control to concentrate on bases and body of the bullet to where you just ensure you have coating on the part of the bullet that actually contacts rifling? "stay off the shoulder as an elk hunter would say" it wouldn't look as cool but i think i could get over that.

The encapsulation effect also protects against Gas Cutting. Again this is best thought of as a "jacket" and not as a "lube". PC pushes softer lead bullets into the realms of jacketed ammunition for velocity.

So again the best way to look at this isn't as though they are "cast bullets" but as a way to make a "jacketed" like bullet, both easily, and cheaply.

I currently use gas checks in addition mostly for a "uniform base" that won't deform under pressure and because my bullet mold is designed for them and thus I have issues seating the bullet in the cartridge case if I don't.

Gas checks do more than prevent gas cutting, they provide a uniform flat base which makes for a more precise bullet. Lead bullets bases will deform under firing pressures which can result in a less stable and precise bullet. Powder coating makes for a more elastic bullet so it is like a "sorta gas check" in regards to base deformation on softer lead.

[stonefly-2]

we have only slightly different objectives here. i can by jacketed bullets now. if a time comes that i can't, gas checks would be unavailable also. my interest is in .357 mag that i can cast myself and still load to "full house" for hunting.i don't need rifle accuracy (precision ?)
fully understand and agree with what you wrote but is "spraying the base don't work for me because i insist on using gas checks" your point?
perhaps you could solder gas checks down on a metal plate to serve as a jig to to provide "cups" so that the bases would be bare when pulled away.

[meaty-btz]

we have only slightly different objectives here. i can by jacketed bullets now. if a time comes that i can't, gas checks would be unavailable also. my interest is in .357 mag that i can cast myself and still load to "full house" for hunting.i don't need rifle accuracy (precision ?)
fully understand and agree with what you wrote but is "spraying the base don't work for me because i insist on using gas checks" your point?
perhaps you could solder gas checks down on a metal plate to serve as a jig to to provide "cups" so that the bases would be bare when pulled away.

Both would work.

I still can apply gas checks just fine to my Rifle 100% coated bullets. The Gas checks still go on just fine.

But as for your pan idea.. several ideas work just fine. Epoxying or soldering gas checks to a metal pan and placing the bullets into them for coating and baking works just fine. They will snap off cleanly but you will get a small "ring" of pc but it will be just fine.

It isn't needed on 357 magnum full house even with a soft 20% tin alloy with total PC.

But if you insist on GC then your idea works perfectly and plenty of people do just so with their GC-PC bullets. Some people apply the gas check, spray, then resize again.

As for jacketed replacement, it isn't just about the availability of jacketed bullets. PC does not foul a barrel with copper like a jacketed bullet.

I suppose in the long view this isnt just about "similar to" it is rather it's own animal whose application and overall properties are unique and whose application is somewhat limited to hobbyists because of the difficulties that would be faced in commercial production (it's been tried several times actually and it was always discontinued due to cost and general incredulity of the general public).

[thenodnarb]

we have only slightly different objectives here. i can by jacketed bullets now. if a time comes that i can't, gas checks would be unavailable also. my interest is in .357 mag that i can cast myself and still load to "full house" for hunting.i don't need rifle accuracy (precision ?)
fully understand and agree with what you wrote but is "spraying the base don't work for me because i insist on using gas checks" your point?
perhaps you could solder gas checks down on a metal plate to serve as a jig to to provide "cups" so that the bases would be bare when pulled away.

357 mag doesn't need gas checks, even in a rifle. pressures and speed are not that of rifle bullets. You don't even need to powder coat those. With the right lube, you can shoot 357 full power loads in a lever gun and still have no leading and good accuracy. Powder coating makes it easier though and a no brainer when it comes to lube. If its powdercoated, it doesn't need a lube. It is slippery and provides a barrier between bore and bullet.

For me, powder coating makes it possible to shoot my rifles at full velocity with crazy cheap bullets. the cost of a gas check is 3 cents. add a fraction of a cent for the powder coat, and you now have a 3.3 cent bullet. The cheapest jacketed bullets I can find for .308 are around 14 cents IF i buy in bulk(like 5k at a time). You can PC the base of bullets, but as people have said it isn't as accurate.I have yet to test it myself. Perhaps with a plain base bullet it would work better than a gas check design. They even make some boat tailed lead bullets for the 300 blackout, that might work as well.

BTW you can buy a gas check cutting die and cut your own checks even from soda cans, eliminating even that cost.

I'm using the harbor freight powder coat system but it is kinda more than I need and a little clumsy. I might get that little powder gun from WAI that is all self contained for convenience.

Finally , regarding the powder coat ridge at the base or tip of the bullets from my jig: The powder coat kinda falls onto the whole jig regardless if it is the intended target(the bullets). So it tends to build up right in that area. Also the powder coating system is not accurate at all, unlike an airbrush. Its a big cloud of dust that is sprayed over the whole area. With bullets with a big diameter that isn't so tall like a 357, you can easily build a jig with screw heads or nuts that the bullets rest on and the ridge wont build up because the screw or nut is smaller that the base of the bullet. These jigs are wonderful for that. but rifle bullets are taller than they are wide, and VERY easily fall over when they are resting on a surface. Perhaps a jig like I just described, but you shoot some spray tac over the surface of the bolt or screw heads, and stick the bullets on top. It still wont get the very bottom of the bullets but it might work adequately for use without a check.(and still be very fast).

[stonefly-2]

thanks for your info both, "staying off the shoulder" won't help. (i have the harbour freight kit as well)
i was aware the pc coated would not foul the barrel and are slipperyer (is that a word) than plated or jacketed bullets which leaves some interesting possibilities for loading high speed ,low pressure loads.
yes i can lube an alloy bullet and work up a load that won't foul my barrel but what i have in mind is straight soft lead. might be interesting to see how they act in ballistic gel huh?
down the road i may apply this to my swedish mauser since we have to use copper before too long. the copper loads iv'e worked up so far are terrible accuracy wise and more experienced reloaders have told me i need more speed.

[stilly]

HOME MADE Dry Tumble Hard Cast Bullets for the Beginner

1. Obtain some hard cast bullets with no lube on them. Since that is kind of hard to do without getting those blue or red bands of lube on them, you need to efficiently get that lube OFF. With that in mind I find that lining a shallow baking pan with some paper towels works nicely. Pour on the bullets until you have a single layer and spread them around a bit, then place them in the oven at about 250 degrees for about 25 minutes.



2. They will be done when ALL of the lube has left the bullets and saturated the paper towels. DEPENDING on the amount and type of lube you have on the bullets, you will see anywhere from FAINT blue to DARK blue stains all over the paper towels. In my first cases, I had SOLID BLUE PAPER TOWELS because I did a LOT of bullets in 45 acp (about 300+ per load from Xtreme hard cast 230gr .45 ACP).- For THESE photos I am using some 9mm bullets that someone gave me to play with. The lube rings were old and came off easily. If you do large batches then when you have saturated paper towels, take them all out, change them to clean paper towels and put them back in for another 25 minutes. Do this until they are clean or run smaller batches.


3. Next take them all out after they're cool and place them inside a glass jar (this is optional really) and then give them a quick bath with some lacquer thinner/ paint thinner. I did this because I just like clean bullets and hopefully the thinner will clean off any other dirt or things that might be on them. In other recipes where you use thinner to adhere the PC, thinner seems to work better than acetone so I say to use thinner and since I had some thinner sitting around after the last experiment...


4. You do not need a LOT of this stuff for a quick bath, maybe even a 1/4 cup IF THAT, maybe closer to an 8th of a cup really, not much at all, you just want to get all of the projectiles coated and wet. OR if you do not mind spending more money then by all means, put more in. No difference, I am just cheap in my methods. Once you have a small amount in the jar, close the lid somewhat tightly and tumble them. This is about 300+ 9mm 115gr that I have in here. I tumbled them for about a minute and saw that the thinner is cloudy by the time I decided to stop.



5. Next dump them out onto a paper towel lined tray or flat surface or WHATEVER, but the goal here is to allow them to dry a bit and the thinner to evaporate away. In a warmer environment it will evaporate faster it seems. Heh, Almost instantly, but if it is cooler then it will take a little longer. Now you can get yourself ready for the next step.


6. You need a tumbling container. I have found that at Smart N Final they have these really cool little SQUARE type of containers that are GREAT for not letting bullets slide around, but rather tumble around. I picked up their smallest one for $1.49 but I can go bigger I believe, it is about 6 or so inches tall and maybe around 4 inches wide. The important thing is that it has to have a SCREW ON cap. I have found that the plastic sour cream or paint containers with snap on lids will allow the PC to escape when all of the lead hits up against it in heavier batches. If you only want to do a small batch then go for whatever, but also, one thing that I have noticed is that I THINK an IDEAL container for this type of work will be NOT round, and FLAT on all sides. That means FLAT base, flat sides, and a threaded round lid or a lid that locks in place. Walmart might be a good source for one too, but I have not looked. You can go hexagonal or square or whatever, but IDEAL is FLAT with no concave bases or anything in my opinion. Buy a few of these containers once you find a good one. They will tend to get discolored with the coatings and why bother wiping them out when you waste that pc and you can just buy a couple of containers for different colors?



7. Next choose your poison. In my case I have hot pink, flourescent green, royal blue, and Glow in the Dark. My green and blue are Tiger Drylac coatings that I purchased from my local PCer that was willing to sell me the stuff at 1 lb per $10 for blue and $15+ for the green or reds. Different colors cost different prices sometimes. They are great though and they so far have seemed to work good. The hot pink and glow in the dark have come from ebay sellers. Glow in the Dark is a Pacific Powdercoat company, and I am not certain of the hot pink, but they use it for jig and lure coatings for fishing. You can get PC from harbor freight or from online or from local coaters. Ebay has a LOT of it but be prepared to pay around $15+/lb online. But the selection is good online. powderbuythepound.com or whatever is a good place to get stuff too. they have a HUGE selection.



8. Keep your things seperated. A little bit of basic chemistry lab organization will work well for you. I use plastic spoons for my coatings, usually I will leave the plastic spoon in the jar since I do not usually mix colors, but sometimes I do and I do not care to use one spoon and keep wiping it off. So I have dedicated spoons. You only need a little bit of PC though. Not a lot. There is about a 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of hot pink on this spoon, but for some reason it does not come out in the photo. This amount will be used for making about 15-30+ bullets. I also thought I would try out some glow in the dark as well so I have mixed in both glow in the dark AND hot pink.



9. As you can see it is not a whole lot of powder to be mixed in here. In all honesty you should prolly dump the bullets in first that way you can gauge your amount of powder needed, but maybe next time I will do that. Right now my bullets are drying from their bath and I wanted to get photos.



10. I am also going to do one more thing because I can. I am going to add in a small amount of HBN powder to see what it does. Normally you would add in a small amount of HBN powder to coat jacketed or lead bullets and tumble them in it, they say like 8 grains will coat about 400 + bullets. I just want to see if it makes my PC any slicker. Adding white graphite to the already slick mix can't hurt too much can it? This is an optional step. HBN is expensive and not necessary. My PC have been FINE without it. I hope it does not contaminate anything. HBN powder is usually mixed in with the epoxy coatings and stuff btw, not PC. PC is its own beast.



Currently I am waiting for my 9mm resizer to show up. I have to run out to the store for a few unrelated supplies so I will come back and make part 2 of this in a few hours hopefully.

[stilly]

HOME MADE Dry Tumble Hard Cast Bullets for the Beginner continued

When we last saw stilly, he was preparing to tumble...

11. So here I put my tumble bottle into my tumbler. (The Thumler works great).



12. I have a digital timer that I bought for my thumler for doing wet process shells but you can use it for this application too. Sadly it has only 1-2-4-8-on for power. I wish it had 1/2 hour. Maybe others might. I find that the longer I tumble this stuff, the deeper/darker the colors get. SO, if you want BRIGHT bullets, tumble for about 15-20 minutes.



13. Coming out of the tumbler the bullets look like a yucky purple/pink. Oh well. They are 9mm anyways. Remember that this was HOT PINK powder that I used...



14. I have a BIG PIG moldable funnel that I use for sorting shells, but any flat smooth clean surface will work. All I do is drop them onto this and spread them out so that I can pick them up with fingers or tweezers. I like to leave powder on. Let's have some multicolored bullets. I will also dust this with glow in the dark powder in the future and see how it affects the outcome.



15. Nonstick aluminum foil is a GODSEND. It works. Line your tray with it. Each piece you use is good for multiple firings.



16. I then set my tray of pills into my super expensive advanced powdercoating oven that I got off a guy on Craigslist for $15.00.



17. I set it to almost 400 degrees for about 15-18 minutes.



18. After they come out they are cool to touch in about 3 minutes. Or you can dump them into a bucket of water if you so desire.



19. I like to resize mine for uniformity. Since these are 9mm I will resize them to .356 with a Lee Resizing kit. No lube, they go in ultra slick and just pop out the top... BTW, these bullets ARE ultra slick. I will have to compare them to my other .45 acp that I made but so far these seem well, they MIGHT be slicker, but still, PC is very slick anyways when it comes out. At least the glossy coatings are.



20. Finished product ready to load up. Sometimes you will have bullets that get jacked in the resizing process. Just toss them into the mix for another coat and keep coating them and resizing until the lead no longer shows... As for being smooth and uneven, yeah, a jig would be cool and the right tools, but that would cost a lot more and waste a lot more. I do not need a respirator for ANY part of this. AND, these are pistol bullets so who needs precise at 500 yards? They seem to function just FINE at 25-50 yards... Plus they just look cool...

[stilly]

HOME MADE Dry Tumble Hard Cast Bullets for the Beginner extras


21. Here is my BIG PIG funnel. It is a piece of aluminum with a rubber/plastic coating on it. I imagine that glass or plastic would work, cutting boards are nice too I bet. I like to have multicoats so I will leave other powder on and then drop new tumbles onto it and well, you saw the effects.



22. How anal you get about resizing is up to you. I do not want any lead showing up so I will recoat and resize until it is all looking good. Usually your resizing will not shave off any PC but in this case I had some old bullets and who knows what they had been through.

[BigBronco]

Bout 2 weeks ago I told Santa I want a powder gun for Christmas.