Powder Coated Bullet Data Thread

[meaty-btz]

This is an experiment. My thoughts are to provide two threads. One for discussion and one for Hard Data. The hard data covers pictures, measurements of groups, chrono data, load data, powder coating methods, jigs, and results, as well as recovered bullets.

The idea is to provide a one stop place to get some hard data facts without having to wade through discussions as happened on the Cast Boolits threads and the several threads here. This isn't about the merits or issues but rather just the facts.

If this works maybe we can request a sticky. I will start off with some data and pictures.

|-----------begin data--------------|

Using Harbor Freight Red Powder in all tests here. (the cheap stuff, epoxy, polyester is superior)

Powder is Sprayed using an old HF Powder Coating Gun and a custom pin-jig.
Jig total cost is about $30 in parts + time and welding.
Jig is custom built to fit the small walmart oven that I use.

Design



Construction Example



Design Test



Results

[meaty-btz]

Load Testing

I use a bench rest for testing the rifles, but I do not yet have a pistol ransom rest.



For getting Velocity Data I use the base model Chrony



I record all of my data while shooting on a note pad. All range bags should have a notebook or pad and pen or pencil.



I keep all of my Load Data and collated results in a "Load Book"... also known as a columnar pad. This is old school but it is how I roll.

[meaty-btz]

Recent Tests in Mauser 8x57 IS.

For this initial test I loaded all the way down to "non-pc" lead load data. Next ones will be a half-step and the final series of tests will be "full house" loads. All the following loads are in the "lead safe range".

LOAD #1
Base Test Load Minimum Reduced Load for H4895 (DNR)
Load is for a 175 Grain Class of Bullet (note that actual weights vary but the load bracket is 175 grain which is the "mold" advertised weight).

Rifle: VZ-24
Powder: Hodgon 4895
Charge: 26.8 (R)(DNR) (load kept to +/- .05 grain on balance type scale using inference)
Load Alloy: Lymann #2 hardness equivalent
Bullet Weight: 185gr +/- 1grain. They dropped very preciously. Red Epoxy Coated.
C.O.L. 3.0 inches
Primer: Winchester Large Rifle Primer
Brass: New Remington 8mm brass
Ten Loaded and fired:
1 - 1318
2 - 1329
3 - 1309
4 - 1294
5 - 1306
6 - error
7 - 1343
8 - 1317
9 - 1312
10 - error

Avg: 1316
Min: 1294
Max: 1343
STD Dev: 13.93
Conclusions: All of these loads are so low powered that they do not expand the brass for a proper seal. Not only is pressure lost but variance is increased. You also get black crap thrown back at you. These loads are all way under powered.
However in this case they also take the 300 yard zero of the vz-24 and put it spot on at 25 yards. This may be good for short ranged practice loads but they are dirty.

Example pictures of failure to seal:

[meaty-btz]

LOAD #2
+.2 gr over base load
Load is for a 175 Grain Class of Bullet (note that actual weights vary but the load bracket is 175 grain which is the "mold" advertised weight).

Rifle: VZ-24
Powder: Hodgon 4895
Charge: 27.0 (R) (load kept to +/- .05 grain on balance type scale using inference)
Load Alloy: Lymann #2 hardness equivalent
Bullet Weight: 185gr +/- 1grain. They dropped very preciously. Red Epoxy Coated
C.O.L. 3.0 inches
Primer: Winchester Large Rifle Primer
Brass: New Remington 8mm brass

Data: Chrono Errors.. only two data points. 1299 and 1306 out of ten shots. Velocities matching with first run. Conclusions, 2 tenths more not really impacting velocity and also still lots of gas seal failure.

LOAD #3
+.4 over base load
Load is for a 175 Grain Class of Bullet (note that actual weights vary but the load bracket is 175 grain which is the "mold" advertised weight).

Rifle: VZ-24
Powder: Hodgon 4895
Charge: 227.2(R)(load kept to +/- .05 grain on balance type scale using inference)
Load Alloy: Lymann #2 hardness equivalent
Bullet Weight: 185gr +/- 1grain. They dropped very preciously. Red Epoxy Coated
C.O.L. 3.0 inches
Primer: Winchester Large Rifle Primer
Brass: New Remington 8mm brass
Data: Due to sun angle chrony continued to have issues. Two data points 1337 and 1314. Both are within the base loads range. No conclusions. Still no proper sealing.

LOAD #4
+.6 over base load
Load is for a 175 Grain Class of Bullet (note that actual weights vary but the load bracket is 175 grain which is the "mold" advertised weight).

Rifle: VZ-24
Powder: Hodgon 4895
Charge: 27.4 (R) (load kept to +/- .05 grain on balance type scale using inference)
Load Alloy: Lymann #2 hardness equivalent
Bullet Weight: 185gr +/- 1grain. They dropped very preciously. Red Epoxy Coated.
C.O.L. 3.0 inches
Primer: Winchester Large Rifle Primer
Brass: New Remington 8mm brass
Data: sun angle still bad lost more than 50% to errors. 4 data points.
1321
1291
1314
1296

Conclusions: Still within base load variance. Still failing to get a good seal. No load change at this level will result in significant velocity changes as the brass is not sealing in the chamber at these levels.

Lots of Chrony problems due to sun angle and wobbly table.

I won't be repeating this load series as I consider it both underpowered and a complete failure. Next series will start in the 30 grain range. All bullets in this series were sized and gaschecked.

[meaty-btz]

LOAD #1 -Pistol
Base Test Load
Load is for a 124 Grain Class of Bullet (note that actual weights vary but the load bracket is 124 grain which is the "mold" advertised weight).

Pistol: Glock G-19 Gen 3
Powder: Red Dot (old version, more closely related to the modern Promo rather than modern Red Dot)
Charge: 4gr (load kept to +/- .1 grain on balance type scale)
Load Alloy: Lymann #2 hardness equivalent
Bullet Weight: 126gr +/- 1grain. They dropped very preciously. Red Epoxy Coated
C.O.L. 1.13 inches
Bullets Sized .356
Primer: Winchester Small Pistol Primer
Brass: Mixed Brass

Data:
1 - 1019
2 - 1026
3 - 1030
4 - 1004
5 - 1057
6 - error
7 - 1028
8 - 1014
9 - 1012
10 - 1015

Average: 1022
Min: 1004
Max: 1057
Std. Dev: 14.4

Conclusions: Zero Leading. Clean barrel. Good Seal. Accurate enough for what limited testing I was doing in that regard. Cycled weapon well. No jams.

[meaty-btz]

LOAD #2 -Pistol
Load is for a 124 Grain Class of Bullet (note that actual weights vary but the load bracket is 124 grain which is the "mold" advertised weight).

Pistol: Glock G-19 Gen 3
Powder: Red Dot (old version, more closely related to the modern Promo rather than modern Red Dot)
Charge: 4.2gr (load kept to +/- .1 grain on balance type scale)
Load Alloy: Lymann #2 hardness equivalent
Bullet Weight: 126gr +/- 1grain. They dropped very preciously.
C.O.L. 1.13 inches
Bullets Sized .356
Primer: Winchester Small Pistol Primer
Brass: Mixed Brass
Coating: Red Epoxy PC, Spray application.

Data:
1 - 1019
2 - 1045
3 - 1052
4 - error
5 - 1098
6 - 1037
7 - 1082
8 - 1002
9 - 1031
10 - 1046

Average: 1045
Min: 1002
Max: 1098
Std. Dev: 27.9

LOAD #3 -Pistol
Load is for a 124 Grain Class of Bullet (note that actual weights vary but the load bracket is 124 grain which is the "mold" advertised weight).

Pistol: Glock G-19 Gen 3
Powder: Red Dot (old version, more closely related to the modern Promo rather than modern Red Dot)
Charge: 3.8gr (load kept to +/- .1 grain on balance type scale)
Load Alloy: Lymann #2 hardness equivalent
Bullet Weight: 126gr +/- 1grain. They dropped very preciously.
C.O.L. 1.13 inches
Bullets Sized .356
Primer: Winchester Small Pistol Primer
Brass: Mixed Brass
Coating: Red Epoxy Powder, Spray applied.

Data:
1 - 1002
2 - 1021
3 - 1024
4 - 1014
Lots of Data loss on this string.

Average: 1015
Min: 1002
Max: 1024
Std. Dev: 8.5 (not representative, too few data points)

LOAD #4 -Pistol
Max -.2 gr
Load is for a 124 Grain Class of Bullet (note that actual weights vary but the load bracket is 124 grain which is the "mold" advertised weight).

Pistol: Glock G-19 Gen 3
Powder: Red Dot (old version, more closely related to the modern Promo rather than modern Red Dot)
Charge: 4.4gr (load kept to +/- .1 grain on balance type scale)
Load Alloy: Lymann #2 hardness equivalent
Bullet Weight: 126gr +/- 1grain. They dropped very preciously.
C.O.L. 1.13 inches
Bullets Sized .356
Primer: Winchester Small Pistol Primer
Brass: Mixed Brass
Coating: Red Epoxy Powder, Spray Applied

Data:
1 - 1072
2 - 1065
3 - 1059
4 - 1068
5 - 1107
6 - 1052
7 - 1084
8 - 1080
9 - 1068
10 - 1084

Average: 1074
Min: 1052
Max: 1107
Std. Dev: 15.2, technically this is one of the best loads of the series except one outlier which may or may not represent a powder variance or some other issue throwing off the std dev.

Conclusions. All loads work and are pretty accurate, but we were not testing that on this outing. No leading. Barrel Clean. No issues with cycling. Red Dot is showing us some issues with these std deviations being so high. We seem to get one or two wild swings out of each lot which may represent a failure on my part or it may represent a variance in the powder consistency or burn.

[meaty-btz]

Vibratory Tumble Applied in comparison.

8x57 232 sized bullets, lymann #2 lead alloy (actual this time).
Used non-stick (expensive) foil.









Observations:
-Messy, that powder went everywhere.. even more so than when spraying in my box.
-Lumpy
-Inconsistent thickness results in off center weight.. no shots fired yet to decide effect on accuracy.\
-Need for two coats to get needed coverage.
-Had some disaster with the oven temp and melted down half my test bullets!

Conclusions:
Probably Ideal for plinking rounds, faster than spray in prep-time (loading the jig takes time, handling and setting for spraying takes time, etc), slower in application. Bonus in more bullets per heat cycle.

[thenodnarb]

.308 FAL load

I am still developing my .308 load but I have had success so far in my FAL:

I'm using a lyman 314299 bullet cast from wheel weights(approx 200grains)
I spray them on a jig using harbor freight red powder. I've been curing them in a 400 degree oven for 15 minutes. They seem to cure fine but I might go to 20 minutes next time. Then I add a gas check and size them down to .309. Despite going from .314 to .309 they usually size just fine because the powder coat is slippery/smooth. Next time I will be sizing to .309, then powder coating, then sizing again back to .309. Once I tried sizing to .308 then powder coating and sizing to .309 but I didn't get consistently round bullets probably due to poor coating technique.

I began using load data in the hornady manual for a 190 grain projectile(start load). My most recent load I have tested was 35.6 grains of IMR 4064. Gas checked bullet, winchester LRP. Velocity varied between 2030's to 2100 but mostly around 2060. I had some variances in my powder charges. Some were as high as 35.9 grains, so velocity variances aren't totally the rifle's fault or even the projectile's fault.

I had no leading and the rifle functioned flawlessly. powder coat doesn't come off in the barrel or gas system. The FAL magazine tends to shave a tiny bit off the bullet as it leaves the magazine due to the rather sharp magazine lips, but it is very slight and can be wiped away.

The Lyman 314299 when it is uncoated, is sligtly impressed by the lands of the rifling( I would estimate by less than 1/2 thousandth total). Once powder coated, it is slightly more impressed(One and a half thousandths combined?). The drawback to this is that once a round is chambered, I cannot eject it by hand. It takes a wack on the charging handle to free it. This is probably increasing pressure slightly, but it should lead to better accuracy as well. A Lyman 311299 might not have this occurrence but I like having 1 mold that services all my 30 caliber guns from .308 to .303 british.
The plan is to continue developing this load to the max velocity of 2400fps or until pressure signs show up. Then I'll stop. I don't anticipate any leading issues.

My jig consists of a 1/2" thick oak board cut to the dimensions of my toaster oven. I drilled a grid of holes with a 9/32 drill bit. This allows the gas check area of my bullets to seat firmly into the board. I lay a sheet of tin foil down on the oak board and push my bullets into the holes. THe tin foil makes contact with the bullets and helps hold them even tighter. Then I attach the powder coat lead to the tin foil and spray and bake. The oak holds up to the heat fine, and the bullets are held securely. They can't get knocked over accidently. Once cured, I use a fired 303 case with the primer area drilled out to accept a screw which acts like a plunger. The case fit over the bullets in the jig and a quick twist scores the powder coating. Then I pry slightly with the case and the bullet pops out of the tray. I push on the screw to pop the bullet out of the case. This takes a couple minutes to pop all the bullets out(100 +). Next time I may spray my bullets upside down in this jig with the nose down to coat the base. The tip will be uncoated but the rest of the bullet should be coated fine. I can probably skip the gas check but accuracy may suffer. I think this is due to the minute variances at the base of the bullet causing pressures to release at the crown unevenly. A gas check helps make the base uniform. We'll see. I'll update after the next batch. I'll try to post a video of me shooting the powder coated bullets...

[thenodnarb]

My "jig"

[bigred1]

subscribed, this Kool-aid is just so tempting.

[anyracoon]

Anyone here try the lacquer thinner method yet? Seems to be less of a mess than spraying or tumbling.

[3006mv]

dry tumbling is much less messy than lacquer thinner.

[stonefly-2]

This is an experiment. My thoughts are to provide two threads. One for discussion and one for Hard Data. The hard data covers pictures, measurements of groups, chrono data, load data, powder coating methods, jigs, and results, as well as recovered bullets.

The idea is to provide a one stop place to get some hard data facts without having to wade through discussions as happened on the Cast Boolits threads and the several threads here. This isn't about the merits or issues but rather just the facts.

If this works maybe we can request a sticky. I will start off with some data and pictures.

|-----------begin data--------------|

Using Harbor Freight Red Powder in all tests here. (the cheap stuff, epoxy, polyester is superior)

Powder is Sprayed using an old HF Powder Coating Gun and a custom pin-jig.
Jig total cost is about $30 in parts + time and welding.
Jig is custom built to fit the small walmart oven that I use.

Design



Construction Example



Design Test



Results

i'm just about geared up to start powder coating myself and what i have in mind for a jig seems a lot less trouble and more productive.
what i have in mind is to use a 1/2" deep cookie pan, turn it upside down, drill a grid of holes that the nose of my bullets can be nested into and sprayed leaving a raw lead meplat.

[thenodnarb]

i'm just about geared up to start powder coating myself and what i have in mind for a jig seems a lot less trouble and more productive.
what i have in mind is to use a 1/2" deep cookie pan, turn it upside down, drill a grid of holes that the nose of my bullets can be nested into and sprayed leaving a raw lead meplat.

I tried basically the same thing. What you get is this:


A buildup of powder coat around the edge of the hole where it enters the jig. If you solve that problem then you will be my hero!

[stonefly-2]

the problem i anticipated was whether after removing the bullet would there be enough clean metal to ensure good electrical contact for the next batch? does that build up "break away" with the bullet leaving good metal ?

feeding problems, chambering problems and likely accuracy issues as well from that crust. if your paint line were up nearer to the point some of that would be less of an issue. does the sprayed powder coat "run" either when sprayed or when cured?

don't need hero status but would like to give back a little for your effort and willingness to share here.