Need help with 450 Bushmaster loads.

[Wildcatter]

Btw, the War will be on tomorrow. The Supreme Court is releasing their ruling on the Heller Case. The Brady's and her ilk are not hopeful at all and are very worried that the Second Amendment will become an Individual Right!

[jagermaster]

Cartridge          : .450 Bushmaster
Bullet             : .452, 240, Hornady XTP MAG 45220
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.015 inch or 51.18 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.5 inch or 419.1 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H110

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   87    36.00   1999    2130   30291   4116     91.1    1.058
-18.0   89    36.90   2049    2238   32630   4233     92.2    1.024  ! Near Maximum !
-16.0   92    37.80   2099    2349   35149   4346     93.2    0.991  ! Near Maximum !
-14.0   94    38.70   2149    2462   37864   4454     94.2    0.960  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-12.0   96    39.60   2199    2578   40794   4556     95.1    0.930  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-10.0   98    40.50   2249    2696   43958   4652     96.0    0.901  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-08.0  100    41.40   2299    2817   47380   4742     96.7    0.873  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0  102    42.30   2349    2940   51087   4825     97.4    0.847  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0  105    43.20   2398    3066   55107   4900     98.0    0.821  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0  107    44.10   2448    3194   59476   4969     98.5    0.797  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  109    45.00   2497    3324   64234   5028     99.0    0.773  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  111    45.90   2547    3457   69427   5080     99.3    0.750  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  113    46.80   2596    3592   75108   5122     99.6    0.728  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  116    47.70   2645    3729   81342   5155     99.8    0.707  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  118    48.60   2694    3868   88202   5179    100.0    0.687  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  120    49.50   2743    4010   95779   5192    100.0    0.667  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Randall i do not know how much it maters but I think slash had his Cartridge O.A.L. at 2.15 not 2.015

[ar15barrels]

Randall i do not know how much it maters but I think slash had his Cartridge O.A.L. at 2.15 not 2.015

It matters a LOT!

Cartridge          : .450 Bushmaster
Bullet             : .452, 240, Hornady XTP MAG 45220
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.150 inch or 54.61 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.5 inch or 419.1 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H110

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   77    36.00   1910    1945   24618   4177     89.1    1.154
-18.0   79    36.90   1957    2041   26325   4307     90.3    1.119
-16.0   81    37.80   2004    2140   28142   4433     91.4    1.085
-14.0   83    38.70   2051    2241   30078   4555     92.4    1.052
-12.0   85    39.60   2097    2344   32140   4673     93.4    1.021  ! Near Maximum !
-10.0   87    40.50   2144    2449   34339   4787     94.3    0.991  ! Near Maximum !
-08.0   89    41.40   2190    2557   36683   4895     95.2    0.963  ! Near Maximum !
-06.0   91    42.30   2237    2666   39184   4999     95.9    0.935  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0   93    43.20   2283    2777   41853   5097     96.6    0.909  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0   95    44.10   2329    2890   44705   5189     97.3    0.884  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0   96    45.00   2375    3005   47754   5275     97.9    0.859  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0   98    45.90   2420    3122   51017   5354     98.4    0.836  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  100    46.80   2466    3240   54512   5427     98.8    0.813  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  102    47.70   2511    3360   58260   5492     99.2    0.791  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  104    48.60   2556    3482   62285   5550     99.5    0.770  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  106    49.50   2601    3605   66614   5601     99.7    0.750  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[Slash2]

AR15Barrels, how about a 250 gr. Colt .452?

I'm curious what using Montana Gold's 250 gr. Colt .452 FMJ flat point bullet would do to the numbers. Same AOL, 2.15", same powder, H110. BTW that bullet is .652" long.

Could I impose yet again?

[ar15barrels]

I'm curious what using Montana Gold's 250 gr. Colt .452 FMJ flat point bullet would do to the numbers. Same AOL, 2.15", same powder, H110. BTW that bullet is .652" long.

Could I impose yet again?

Cartridge          : .450 Bushmaster
Bullet             : .452, 250, Montana
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.150 inch or 54.10 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.5 inch or 419.1 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H110

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   79    36.00   1911    2027   26319   4228     90.9    1.142
-18.0   80    36.90   1958    2127   28169   4353     92.0    1.107
-16.0   82    37.80   2004    2229   30141   4474     93.0    1.073
-14.0   84    38.70   2050    2333   32244   4591     93.9    1.041  ! Near Maximum !
-12.0   86    39.60   2096    2440   34487   4703     94.8    1.010  ! Near Maximum !
-10.0   88    40.50   2142    2548   36880   4810     95.7    0.981  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-08.0   90    41.40   2188    2658   39436   4911     96.4    0.953  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0   92    42.30   2234    2770   42165   5007     97.1    0.925  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0   94    43.20   2279    2884   45084   5097     97.7    0.899  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0   96    44.10   2325    3000   48207   5180     98.2    0.874  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0   98    45.00   2370    3117   51551   5256     98.7    0.850  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  100    45.90   2414    3236   55137   5326     99.1    0.827  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  102    46.80   2459    3357   58986   5388     99.4    0.804  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  104    47.70   2504    3479   63123   5442     99.7    0.783  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  106    48.60   2548    3603   67576   5488     99.8    0.762  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  108    49.50   2592    3729   72377   5527    100.0    0.742  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[shomstead]

Hornady Shell Plate

The correct shell plate for this is the Hornady #1 correct?

[Slash2]

The correct shell plate for this is the Hornady #1 correct?

You are correct Sir!

[Wildcatter]

It matters a LOT!

Cartridge          : .450 Bushmaster
Bullet             : .452, 240, Hornady XTP MAG 45220
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.150 inch or 54.61 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.5 inch or 419.1 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H110

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   77    36.00   1910    1945   24618   4177     89.1    1.154
-18.0   79    36.90   1957    2041   26325   4307     90.3    1.119
-16.0   81    37.80   2004    2140   28142   4433     91.4    1.085
-14.0   83    38.70   2051    2241   30078   4555     92.4    1.052
-12.0   85    39.60   2097    2344   32140   4673     93.4    1.021  ! Near Maximum !
-10.0   87    40.50   2144    2449   34339   4787     94.3    0.991  ! Near Maximum !
-08.0   89    41.40   2190    2557   36683   4895     95.2    0.963  ! Near Maximum !
-06.0   91    42.30   2237    2666   39184   4999     95.9    0.935  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0   93    43.20   2283    2777   41853   5097     96.6    0.909  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0   95    44.10   2329    2890   44705   5189     97.3    0.884  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
[U][B][I][SIZE="5"]+00.0   96    45.00   2375    3005   [SIZE="7"]47754   [/SIZE]5275     97.9    0.859[/SIZE][/I][/B][/U]  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0   98    45.90   2420    3122   51017   5354     98.4    0.836  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  100    46.80   2466    3240   54512   5427     98.8    0.813  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  102    47.70   2511    3360   58260   5492     99.2    0.791  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  104    48.60   2556    3482   62285   5550     99.5    0.770  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  106    49.50   2601    3605   66614   5601     99.7    0.750  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Ok, things are starting to look up according to this, Slash's load had a psi of 47754 psi, which by any standars is fairly light by some comparisons...I'm out of town for the next week and that Randall guy (my hero) has given you much to consider. I'll be very intrested in where you guys take all this when I get back...t

[ar15barrels]

Ok, things are starting to look up according to this, Slash's load had a psi of 47754 psi, which by any standars is fairly light by some comparisons...I'm out of town for the next week and that Randall guy (my hero) has given you much to consider. I'll be very intrested in where you guys take all this when I get back...t

True, by 308 standards, 47754 PSI is a light load, but let's not forget that we are working in the 223 platform.
I'll take this oppertunity to again remind everyone what a 223 AR bolt looks like compared to a 308 AR bolt.

[Slash2]

Dissapointing performance

I've been shooting up a few rounds loaded with Montana Gold 250 gr. .452 flat point bullets and 36.6 grs. of H110, and I'm not happy at all with the results. I was getting a 12" group at 100 yrds!
So I shot 4 of my factory rounds, 1.25'' group dead smack in the bulls eye.

Anybody want to buy about 800 .45 Colt bullets?

[Wildcatter]

True, by 308 standards, 47754 PSI is a light load, but let's not forget that we are working in the 223 platform.
I'll take this oppertunity to again remind everyone what a 223 AR bolt looks like compared to a 308 AR bolt.

I'm Back,...True by 223 standards, which are in the 52,000-55,000 psi arena, besides the 308 has far more bolt thrust pressures, with all due respect and the "qoute" 450 hotties have less measurable bolt thrust problems than the 223.

What's up with those 250's are they hard cast or ??? Man I had great hopes for that bullet, don't give up on them yet, might be some other kind of problem.

[Wildcatter]

I've been shooting up a few rounds loaded with Montana Gold 250 gr. .452 flat point bullets and 36.6 grs. of H110, and I'm not happy at all with the results. I was getting a 12" group at 100 yrds!
So I shot 4 of my factory rounds, 1.25'' group dead smack in the bulls eye.

Anybody want to buy about 800 .45 Colt bullets?

I've got to think you are way low on the pressures. Did the last round even hold the bolt open, after shooting it? Were you able to get a speed on them?

[Slash2]

I've got to think you are way low on the pressures. Did the last round even hold the bolt open, after shooting it? Were you able to get a speed on them?

They were clocking at 1950 to 2000 ish. With my crony and my 16" barrel the factory rounds were hitting 2100. They were cycling the bolt but it's rare that any of my mags hold the bolt open on the last round, even the factory stuff.

These guys (the Montana Gold bullets) have a heavy gold (brass?) jacket with the butt being exposed lead. I've heard Montana Gold makes good stuff, but then again these are .45 Long Colt pistol bullets, not rifle bullets, maybe pistol bullets just can't go that fast that far and not go wonky along the way, I don't know.

I don't know if they make pistol bullets to looser tolerances than rifle bullets. I don't know if there is an inherent limit to the stability of a bullet based on its diameter/length/weight/shape/velocity ratios. I would think there is, physics has to step in and say "hey, short and fat can only go so fast before it becomes unstable", but I don't know for sure.

Maybe there's some magical velocity that anything, even a spiralling pig, becomes stable and flies straight, but I don't know for sure, (just joking there) but I would think short and fat has it's limits.

I'm just wondering if a 250 gr. 45 caliber bullet that is only half again as long as it is wide can go 200 yards accurately under any circumstances, maybe it can, I don't know.

[Wildcatter]

Now that's just something I gotta see, A spirling pig!!

No pistol bullets will work well if you don't over rev them. One way to do that is to slow the twist down, which I did. 200yds on that bullet should be no-thing. As a matter of fact, if you can hit the target at 600yds you will still have enough power to decide any issue.

While you are working the loads "up", you need to single load them. When the bolt-hold-open functions, that is the indicator that you are going in the right direction. As far as the factory loads not holding the bolt open after the last shot, remember to keep the action properly lubed. The problem you discribe is very common with dry actions, just keep the lube out of the chamber or increased bolt thrust will be introduced.

Getting the speeds up will proably decrease those groups sizes, dramatically.

Again, after you decide what the real speeds/pressures are for that bullet and the groups setle down, I'd love to see a report on my milk-jug penetration test. Though they are "Pistol Bullets", their construction may "Way-Out-Perform" any 45-70 factory load!!

[Slash2]