Rifle brass sizing

[ar15barrels]

So I have a batch of 15 cases that won't size down enough to go into the rifle without resistance. The shell holder is touching the die.

Insert one of the troublesome cases back into the press and run the ram up so the case is in the die (don't forget to lube!) and take a flashlight and put it behind the shellholder and die.
I bet you will see light coming through between the shelholder and die.

When you say the shellholder is touching the die, you probably mean WITHOUT a case in the die.

It takes a good amount of force to size a case.
When you apply that force, all the slop in the press linkage goes away.
Also, as you apply that force, the press frame stretches.

THAT is how you get a gap and cases that are not sized enough even though you thought the die was all the way down against the shellholder.

That's also why you can screw the die down even more and move the shoulder back some more.

[fguffey]

The only other thing could be if your running one brand of shell holder with another brand die. I know that has caused issues for some people in the past, although I've never had that issue myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmagee67 View Post
I'm so disappointed that our resident developmentally disabled reloader hasn't chimed in.

just a matter of time.

You do not know that problem? has caused other a problem in the past because shell holders are standard. the height of the shell holder is .125". The case head sits on the deck of the shell holder and the die sets on the top of the shell holder (again), the difference in the two heights is .125".

Many years ago C&H was located in El Monte, California. In the 60's they sold dies in a fiber counter display box. The instructions were on the bottom of the box; before the Internet finding instruction on the bottom of the box was not a problem for reloaders.

The instructions suggested the reloader use their dies with shell holders with a height of .125"; tyoday reloaders do not know how to measure the deck height of the shell holders. If they did they would not say the die must match the brand of shell holder.

I have shell holders that are mistakes; for me that is not a problem because I am a case former; a case former can take advantage of shell holders that do not have a deck height of .125".

I was offered 'a deal' to exchange all of my shell holders that were different, that included shell holders that would not fit my automatic hand primer systems, I thought the offer was generous and considerate because I have three different sets of RCBS shell holders, I thanked them and kept my shell holders.

And then there is that automatic response: Grind the top of the shell holder or the bottom of the die I have never found it necessary to grind the shell holder and or die. And then there are dies that are nice (and expensive). Anything that can be accomplished with the Redding competition shell holders can be accomplished with standard shell holders, the reloaders has to know what they are doing.

F. Guffey

[J-cat]

Well, yes, but it’s easier than sending the rifle back to the manufacturer demanding they adjust the chamber.

[jwfire25]

Thank for the responses. As some have said, maybe I wasn't running the shell holder all the way to the bottom of the die with case inserted. I can't confirm I was doing that

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[fguffey]

Thank for the responses. As some have said, maybe I wasn't running the shell holder all the way to the bottom of the die with case inserted. I can't confirm I was doing that

Yes you can; any reloaders should be able to check if the press won or the case won. If the press won the die will make it to the shell holder. If the case wins the die will not make it to the shell holder. That means there will be a gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. Many years ago I started using the feeler gage to determine the gap.

Before that I verified the ability of the die to return the case to minimum length. And it has never been a problem for me to verify the shell holder.

AND if the shell holders did not have the correct deck height I used a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

And then there is the ability to increases the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head: I use feeler gages between the top of the shell holder to the bottom of the die to increase the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. Again, there are some chambers that require an increase in case length from the shoulder to the case head .014". Again; not a problem.

F. Guffey

[jwfire25]

Correct. What I mean is I can't recall it. I will check when I get home. I'm stuck at work because of the fires. Thanks for your insight [emoji106]

Yes you can; any reloaders should be able to check if the press won or the case won. If the press won the die will make it to the shell holder. If the case wins the die will not make it to the shell holder. That means there will be a gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. Many years ago I started using the feeler gage to determine the gap.

Before that I verified the ability of the die to return the case to minimum length. And it has never been a problem for me to verify the shell holder.

AND if the shell holders did not have the correct deck height I used a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

And then there is the ability to increases the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head: I use feeler gages between the top of the shell holder to the bottom of the die to increase the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. Again, there are some chambers that require an increase in case length from the shoulder to the case head .014". Again; not a problem.

F. Guffey

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[SixPointEight]

Insert one of the troublesome cases back into the press and run the ram up so the case is in the die (don't forget to lube!) and take a flashlight and put it behind the shellholder and die.
I bet you will see light coming through between the shelholder and die.

When you say the shellholder is touching the die, you probably mean WITHOUT a case in the die.

It takes a good amount of force to size a case.
When you apply that force, all the slop in the press linkage goes away.
Also, as you apply that force, the press frame stretches.

THAT is how you get a gap and cases that are not sized enough even though you thought the die was all the way down against the shellholder.

That's also why you can screw the die down even more and move the shoulder back some more.

This, I've seen this a lot helping newer reloaders. They do the whole "screw it in until the die touches the shellholder" approach then tighten the lock ring. Most presses have enough slop that when you run a case into the die you will see some amount of light between the shellholder and bottom of the die.

Run a lubed case into the die and look for light. If you see light between shellholder and die, back the case out and screw the die in ~1/8 turn. Check again and repeat until you see no light between the die and shellholder. Lube another case and double check the die setting. Then you'll be sizing cases just fine.

[LynnJr]

The guy in the video is spot on. He is correctly setting up the die while most don't. Once you have any clearance at all the bolt drops no matter how much or how little.

[fguffey]

That's also why you can screw the die down even more and move the shoulder back some more.

It is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support. I have never considered the difficulty reloaders have in understand the sequences of events between raising the ram and lowering and the effect sizing has on a case.

I understand I will not get an answer, I also understand all I will get for my efforts is lip service.

Is there anyone on this forums that understands why it is impossible to move the shoulder back on a case when sizing?.

And then there is the light that helps reloaders determine the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die? I started with a feeler gage; after the Internet reloaders started to 'bump' the shoulder back. Same thing; it is impossible to bump the shoulder back on a case, 'bump' is something the press does. If a reloader has a non-bump press he has a press that is not a cam over press.

F. Guffey

[mjmagee67]

You do not know that problem? has caused other a problem in the past because shell holders are standard. the height of the shell holder is .125". The case head sits on the deck of the shell holder and the die sets on the top of the shell holder (again), the difference in the two heights is .125".

Many years ago C&H was located in El Monte, California. In the 60's they sold dies in a fiber counter display box. The instructions were on the bottom of the box; before the Internet finding instruction on the bottom of the box was not a problem for reloaders.

The instructions suggested the reloader use their dies with shell holders with a height of .125"; tyoday reloaders do not know how to measure the deck height of the shell holders. If they did they would not say the die must match the brand of shell holder.

I have shell holders that are mistakes; for me that is not a problem because I am a case former; a case former can take advantage of shell holders that do not have a deck height of .125".

I was offered 'a deal' to exchange all of my shell holders that were different, that included shell holders that would not fit my automatic hand primer systems, I thought the offer was generous and considerate because I have three different sets of RCBS shell holders, I thanked them and kept my shell holders.

And then there is that automatic response: Grind the top of the shell holder or the bottom of the die I have never found it necessary to grind the shell holder and or die. And then there are dies that are nice (and expensive). Anything that can be accomplished with the Redding competition shell holders can be accomplished with standard shell holders, the reloaders has to know what they are doing.

F. Guffey

Oomp there it is, Oomp there it is

[J-cat]

Is there anyone on this forums that understands why it is impossible to move the shoulder back on a case when sizing?

But it is possible to move the location of the shoulder on a case.

[SixPointEight]

But it is possible to move the location of the shoulder on a case.

It is even possible for us to move the location of the case shoulder datum three one-thousandths of an inch further back on the case (when measured from the case head) than it was located after the case was fired in and ejected from our rifle, but before being lubricated then inserted and removed from our sizing die by actuating the handle on our reloading press.

It's actually possible to use even more words than this to describe what's happening when we resize a case, but generally being clear and concise is more valuable than being boring, long-winded and precise. There's a reason people read about scientific breakthroughs in a 3 paragraph Yahoo News article instead of reading the scientific journals which originally published the work. "Bumping the shoulder" is sufficiently accurate for our purposes.

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[kriller134]

Oh no, someone just conjured the fguffey....

He has come!!!!!!!

[Capt.Dunsel]

He has come!!!!!!!

I thought you had to say is name 3 times ?

[fguffey]

It's actually possible to use even more words than this to describe what's happening when we resize a case

actually possible ?

Actually?

If a reloader could move the shoulder back and he was a member on this forum or another forum he would have raised his hand by now hollering "OH! OH! OH! Pick ne, pick me! I am the only reloaders that says it is impossible; no ***** footing, no tap dancing around, it is just plain and simple "It can not be done".

I am thinking we should start a new category of reloaders; we could call them 'BUMPERS", they have no clue as to what happens to the case when it is sized so they start with, "I BUMP etc.". I keep asking them, "HOW?" 'how is it possible to bump the shoulder back?'

Finding bumper reloaders in a crowd is easy; they have droopy shoulders and a receding hair line. I ask them a question and they answer by shrugging their shoulders, I explain the answer and the do a hand slap to their head. It does not have to be that way.

The reason why it is impossible to move the shoulder back on a case when sizing is in the die. The die makes it impossible because the full length sizing die has case body support.

I have special dies that do not have case body support, dies that do not have case body support are dangerous in the hands of a bumper. The reason is simple; to use a die that does not have case body support the reloader must know what he is doing. No amount of 'talking about it' will make one of those dies shape up and fly correctly.

F. Guffey