Rifle brass sizing

[LynnJr]

Anytime you resize brass it gets longer. If you reload you should know this. The extra length when you first start sizing your brass actually moves the shoulder forward and if you reload you should know this as well.
Once the die makes contact with the shoulder the shoulder stops moving forward and if you reload this is common knowledge.
As you continue to screw the die down the shoulder moves rearward and the neck gets longer and this is why trimming is required. If you reload this is common knowledge.

So to be specific about your post the material goes into the neck as added neck length.
And to be specific the shoulder gets longer then stops moving then gets pushed back as the die is adjusted to fit your particular chamber.
If you are constantly trimming brass you are pushing the shoulder back too much each time you resize your brass which leads to casehead separation.
You got lumped in with Guffey because your post shows you don't understand the process of sizing brass.
Anybody here who has dies and a press plus a caliper can confirm this.
A comparator will show you that the shoulder to casehead distance is shortened which Guffey himself admits to.

He is here baiting people into a post asking him the difference between the shoulder moving and the distance decreasing between the shoulder and casehead which he admits happening.
Most here just ignore his rants others try explaining what actually takes place. Guffey wants you to ask him questions about why the distance is decreased between the casehead and shoulder but the shoulder hasn't moved.
You have fallen into his trap.
He will only respond to a select few posters for a reason and he can't answer any of my questions. Ask him how I am able to put two shoulders on to a case and if the original shoulder hasindeed been moved?
I already know the answer.

Edit:. The neck getting longer is why you size your brass before you trim it to length.

[Capt.Dunsel]

Anytime you resize brass it gets longer. If you reload you should know this. The extra length when you first start sizing your brass actually moves the shoulder forward and if you reload you should know this as well.
Once the die makes contact with the shoulder the shoulder stops moving forward and if you reload this is common knowledge.
As you continue to screw the die down the shoulder moves rearward and the neck gets longer and this is why trimming is required. If you reload this is common knowledge.

So to be specific about your post the material goes into the neck as added neck length.
And to be specific the shoulder gets longer then stops moving then gets pushed back as the die is adjusted to fit your particular chamber.
If you are constantly trimming brass you are pushing the shoulder back too much each time you resize your brass which leads to casehead separation.
You got lumped in with Guffey because your post shows you don't understand the process of sizing brass.
Anybody here who has dies and a press plus a caliper can confirm this.
A comparator will show you that the shoulder to casehead distance is shortened which Guffey himself admits to.

He is here baiting people into a post asking him the difference between the shoulder moving and the distance decreasing between the shoulder and casehead which he admits happening.
Most here just ignore his rants others try explaining what actually takes place. Guffey wants you to ask him questions about why the distance is decreased between the casehead and shoulder but the shoulder hasn't moved.
You have fallen into his trap.
He will only respond to a select few posters for a reason and he can't answer any of my questions. Ask him how I am able to put two shoulders on to a case and if the original shoulder hasindeed been moved?
I already know the answer.

Edit:. The neck getting longer is why you size your brass before you trim it to length.

All that and still no proof , except your say so . Will wait until you show proof , real proof , the actual physical proof .

Just cause your on the internet doesn't mean your word is proof .( the old saying " I saw it on the internet so it must be true " )

But you did prove a point , you are just REFORMING the case .

And you turn it into a rip on Mr.Guffy post again .

[LynnJr]

CaptDunsel
The proof would be YOU doing exactly what I described and posting YOUR RESULTS!!!!!!!

The problem is everyone here can do the same thing so there results and YOUR RESULTS should be the same.

Again I wish you luck should you take up loading as a hobby.

If I can ask you one question it would be this.
If the shoulder on my brass is 2 inches from the casehead and I bump it back to 1.5 inches did I move the shoulder? Or did the shoulder stay at 2 inches while I formed a different shoulder at 1.5 inches
I only ask because people see things in many different ways.
And nobody is attacking Me Guffey. I and the entire die manufacturing industry disagree with his post that you can't move the shoulder back or bump it.
If your not busy Monday maybe you can call Redding or Sinclair International and ask them.
And yes I know this is the internet so you would have to show me proof that you are correct as well.

[LynnJr]

OH! OH! OH! Pick ne, pick me! I am the only reloaders that says it is impossible; no ***** footing, no tap dancing around, it is just plain and simple "It can not be done".

I am thinking we should start a new category of reloaders; we could call them 'BUMPERS", they have no clue as to what happens to the case when it is sized so they start with, "I BUMP etc.". I keep asking them, "HOW?" 'how is it possible to bump the shoulder back?'

Straight from Redding Technical Support.





standarddiesbttn bushingcompetitiondiesbttn
Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Cartridge Case Denting
One of the most common reloading problems that initiates a call to our customer service technicians, is the denting of cartridge cases shoulders and bodies during the sizing process. There are several different causes of these dents and each has its own unique cure.
Shipping Lubricant
When shipped from the factory, all Redding reloading dies are protected with a moisture displacing oil for shipment and storage. During prolonged storage, this shipping oil may migrate to one side of the die and harden. Before using your new dies, they should be cleaned to remove all traces of the shipping oil. Using a quality bore solvent and a brass bristle brush, scrub the interior of the dies out and then carefully dry them. Be sure no solvent remains in the threaded area at the top of the die that may later run down and cause sizing difficulties. An air compressor will greatly assist in drying the dies after cleaning.

Excess Lubricant
A common and obvious cause of shoulder denting is the application of excessive lubricant before the case is run into the sizing die. When using a high-grade case lubricant, such as our "Imperial Sizing Die Wax" or "Original Formula", a light, even coat applied to the body of the cartridge case is all that is necessary. The lubricant can be applied using your fingers or our lubricant pad. Be sure to wipe the excess lubricant off the case shoulder and neck area, leaving only a thin film remaining.

Lubricant can also build up over time in the sizing die body. Each time the die is used, a new layer of lubricant is added. The lubricant then hardens during storage and gradually builds up until the accumulation starts denting the cartridge cases. Clean the die using the above recommended procedure to restore the interior of the die.

Excess Sizing
Another common cause of cartridge case denting is excessively sizing the case. In this case, the "dent" is actually a "kink." When the sizing die dimensions aren't closely matched to the chamber dimensions, the case buckles away from the die during sizing. This can be caused by an oversize chamber, an undersize die, excessively bumping the case shoulder or any combination of the three.

A properly adjusted full length sizing or body die should be set up to bump the case shoulder 0.002" for most rifles. When sizing cases for an autoloader, bump the shoulder .004" to .006". This figure can be verified with the Redding Instant Indicator Headspace and Bullet Comparator. Using a Redding's Competition Shellholder Set will make achieving precise shoulder bump a snap. See the Redding catalog or website for more information.

To check for excessive case sizing, compare the dimensions of a fired case and one that has been resized. The diameter of the fired case at any point should not be reduced more than 0.005". If you find that your cases are being sized more than this, an oversize chamber or undersize die may be the problem. Sometimes, it may be possible to polish or hone the die to better match the chamber. Check with the factory if you suspect this problem.

A popular misconception is that sizing dies need a "vent hole" to release air or excessive lubricant. It can be easily demonstrated that a vented die will also dent cases if excessive lubricant is applied to the cases, case dimensions are not compatible with the sizing die or the case shoulder is being bumped excessively.

If you have further questions, please feel free to contact our tech line Phone (607) 753-3331

They don't seem to have any problems with semantics wording qualifiers myths or any other nonsense plus they list a phone number for those who do. What they do say is that you do indeed BUMP the shoulder and it's not impossible.

[Metal God]

But now I have to research this "shoulder bumping business" lol!

Ignore EVERYTHING F, Goofey says and you should be GTG , He is the poster child for the word troll .

[divingin]

Reloaders have used up a lot of space trying to explain something that is impossible to do. You seems to believe it does not matter but as soon as a reloader tries to explain what happens to the case body, shoulder and neck when fired they have to rely on cute little sayings because they do not have a clue.

I disagree.

The process is performed to attain a goal. Case head to datum is too long; we need to shorten it. So you take a fired case, run it through the sizing die, and if the process is performed correctly, you end up with a usable result. At that point it doesn't matter whether you call it bumping, moving the shoulder or whatever terminology you (and I mean you, personally) use to describe it (since you won't enlighten us with that bit); the job is done. The case will chamber, which was the goal in the first place. And using the term "bumping the shoulder" relates the process to others quite well (as you should be aware now, having argued this on just about every forum I've been on.) Ever wonder why you're the only one arguing this point?

I, personally, when asked if I reloaded a piece of ammunition, have never been asked what happens to the brass in the sizing die (Growth in the case body is squeezed back down, case head to datum reduced.) Why? Most likely because nobody except you cares. Brass goes in unusable (or semi-usable), comes out usable; that's what people are looking for.

Among all of the reloaders I am familiar with not one of them can explain the sequence of events because they do not understand the part about moving the shoulder back with a die that has case body support, it seems it is easier to become socially dysfunctional than to think.

I hardly see how sizing brass makes us socially dysfunctional, whether we understand everything happening or not. Unless we're talking to you, that is, but that's a case of one. Everyone else understands what's being said, what's trying to be accomplished, and the terminology being used. In that light, if any of us are socially dysfunctional, I think it's you, as you don't seem get along with too many people on here (or other forums.)

To sum up, if we can decrease the length of the cartridge base to datum line by running it into a sizing die, then we're done (and without having to understand where every brass molecule migrates to or doesn't.) That was the goal in the first place.

Apologies to the rest of the forum for rambling on about this.

[Metal God]

Everyone else understands what's being said, what's trying to be accomplished, and the terminology being used. In that light, if any of us are socially dysfunctional, I think it's you,

Oh I love it when someone gets DESTROYED by there own words . Everyone except Goofey is functioning quite well in this forum/sociality . Ha Ha there is only one socially dysfunctional member here and we all know who that troll is . LMAO , oh wait can I say LMAO ? because it actually didn't mean anything before the internet . That must mean you can't use a new term others have excepted unless you used it first .

The ignorance in which this guy operates is off the charts . I thank my lucky stars I'm not a family member of this guy . Could you imagine having to deal with this guy on a daily or even hourly bases . OMG , oops there I go again .

[SixPointEight]

LMAO , oh wait can I say LMAO ?

No because it's not printed on the back of Guffey's reloading die boxes.

[longrange1]

All that and still no proof , except your say so . Will wait until you show proof , real proof , the actual physical proof .

Just cause your on the internet doesn't mean your word is proof .( the old saying " I saw it on the internet so it must be true " )

But you did prove a point , you are just REFORMING the case .

And you turn it into a rip on Mr.Guffy post again .

in your own words....

"Fighting on the internet is like being in the special Olympics , everybody wins but your still retarded".

[J-cat]

So you don't understand either , and putting me on one side or the other of your pissing contest .

Your exact comment was " that it adjusts the shoulder so when you" bump the shoulder back" where does the material between the new shoulder and case head go ? say .001 to .1 ( how ever much you are bumping back ).

You are actually , as I mentioned previously , REFORMING the case by relocating the shoulder closer to the case head.

And you did put me in the company of Mr Guffy , where I didn't say I agreed with him , but you all were not listening to a simple statement . Learn the terms and definitions before you say someone is not correct , like your self in the assumption that I was or will be like yourself , or Mr. Guffy ,closed minded and not listen to people that have a different understanding .


I am still waiting for proof of where does the material go if your just 'bumping' the shoulder back , guess you can't , if you can not then it must be that you are really REFORMING the case with a new shoulder closer to case head .
correct ?

[LynnJr]

Yeah I got a huge kick out of his no PROOF claim especially since I posted straight from Reddings own website on several occasions in which they not myself directly dispute what Mr Guffey is saying as do all of the manufacturers.
Oh well.

[smoothy8500]

Now we have not one, but two obstinate members in the "shoulder-bump" arena...

[LynnJr]

I think CaptDunsel was trying to help explain the posts by Mr Guffey which is tough to do as his English and cryptic writing style is hard to understand. It is clear neither of them are up to date on brass sizing terminology.
You have to remember that Mr Guffey goes into his mechanics toolbox and pulls out his feeler gauges when he sizes his brass.
Most here would rather fix the problem while Mr Guffey shoves a feeler gauge between the shellholder and casehead in order to save a 50 cent piece of sandpaper.

I like the smell of cod liver oil in an engine but I have moved into the 21st century and rely upon Quaker State or Pennzoil to get the job done now.