Another gun store that doesn't do PPTs *Updated Post 42*

[44fred]

What does the law say about safes in LGS's? Where I moved from I witnessed home businesses that didn't have safes for all their inventory. Some have been audited and suffered zero penalty for not having room for all guns in their safe.

[bigcalidave]

I don't care either way about reporting them, it is the law and it is a service to gun owners.

What bothers me is that gun stores like this are bad for the industry. They piss people off, they break the law, they cause new shooters to be inconvenienced which could lead to someone not bothering to buy a gun. This applies to stores which overcharge for ppts as well, or add bogus fees in transactions.

If they want to participate in this business, they shouldn't be doing things that hurt all of us.

[diverwcw]

My contention is and will be that PPTs are part of the cost of doing business in this state. If the FFL doesn't want to do it, they are in violation of the law and better not whine when the DOJ auditor dings them for it. Too many dings and they can loose their license. I have no problem with them setting requirements like having ALL of the necessary paperwork IN HAND before proceeding with the transaction. It is up to the individual doing the PPT to know, or to find out, the procedures involved prior to the transaction. If somebody wants to report the FFL for refusal to do the PPT, I have no problem with that either.

[44fred]

If the LGS doesn't want to follow the law they signed up for then they suffer the consequences. If the same LGS had a policy of no waiting period or 30 waiting period would that be ok for those who just say go somewhere else?
Most gun buyers today have no clue what the law says about legalities on gun purchases let alone PPT's. This is why this LGS is still in business.
We have some large gun stores here in Bakersfield that seem very successful. Some run their store hoping the guy that really knows his stuff, doesn't come in. All you have to do is listen to the boneheads behind the counter, you know the type.
I do agree if you have a second or third choice right down the street, use 'em!
Unless the DOJ shuts down Ace, they will remain in business in spite of themselves.

[Southwest Chuck]

Question: If this gun store has no space to store, how could they sell anything new? The mere fact that they would sell any "new" gun, (and "store" it for the mandatory 10 day wait), admits they have storage area available. I have no knowledge of an exemption that allows an FFL to restrict PPT storage space to a certain percentage of their total available storage space. It's an invalid argument, IMHO.

[Jason95357]

Best option if you have the option is to promote stores that are doing the right thing. Get on Yelp and promote them. Get on Yelp and down-rate stores who won't follow the law and state your reason (this helps other stores who will have higher ratings).

CalDOJ isn't going to do squat to help you PPT. They like it being as difficult as possible.

Leave the lawbreaking LGS to sit stew and lose business - and make sure they know why those lose your business. Everytime you buy a gun-related product let them know you bought it elsewhere beacause they don't follow the law and provided PPT services they are required to do.

[Cool Custard]

I don't know about you, but if a store doesn't have room to store my firearm properly in a safe them is be glad that they refer me to a different shop instead of leaving my gun floating around to get damaged or stolen.

Ratting them out to the doj is silly. Money talks and if you don't like it don't spend money there and they can suffer the consequences of their actions.

You sound like the kid in school: "Teacher! Teacher! You forgot to give us homework!" Myob and go about your life.

[bigcalidave]

I don't know about you, but if a store doesn't have room to store my firearm properly in a safe them is be glad that they refer me to a different shop instead of leaving my gun floating around to get damaged or stolen.

Ratting them out to the doj is silly. Money talks and if you don't like it don't spend money there and they can suffer the consequences of their actions.

You sound like the kid in school: "Teacher! Teacher! You forgot to give us homework!" Myob and go about your life.

Except the teacher not giving you homework doesn't prevent someone from selling / buying a firearm, while it is still legally possible.

If dealers get away with it, then more dealers will do it, and the PPT method will go away completely. I'm sure it is hard for some people to think big picture on stuff like this, but it is important to keep these stores that want to be in the gun business honest.

[jeremiah12]

If dealers get away with it, then more dealers will do it, and the PPT method will go away completely. I'm sure it is hard for some people to think big picture on stuff like this, but it is important to keep these stores that want to be in the gun business honest.

Actually, IMVHO, I see the big picture differently. In my area, the very few dealers that had this policy in the past, are now out of business. I am sure this was not what put them out of business, it was their overall poor customer service. A new dealer came to town, offered better service, word got around, and the crappy LGS went bankrupt. People stopped going to the jerk and went to the place that treated them right.

Twice, while being the buyer in a PPT, I found a firearm in the store that I had been looking for for some time. In the normal chit-chat with the FFL processing the PPT, I would bring this up. Both times I was offered a substantial discount to purchase that firearm and add it to my DROS. It was a win-win. (Except my wife gave me heck for get the number of guns I bought wrong).

They won over a new customer. So whenever I am in the area, I stop by and at least purchase ammo. One is local to me and has a great reputation and openly welcomes PPTs. He has a small shop but it is always filled with customers whenever I go in. That FFL is now advertising on the local radio station I listen to and his ad always mention he is the place to do your PPTs.

I realize this is just one example.

I also believe that most FFLs will do the PPTs. I can understand if there is no other choice within a 100 miles. In this case, there are 2 other choices, 1 within a mile or 2.

We have too much government intrusion into our lives these days. I grew up in CA and remember a time when there were not so many laws. People also took care of things without involving the government all that much. If you did not like how a store treated you, you shopped elsewhere. It was much harder to do that then.

All I am seeing is a power trip, the same as the politicians. You are not doing what your are supposed to do so I am going to show you I have power over you by reporting you to the government. Let the government solve the problem. Especially in the case of the OP when it did not affect him, he had not attempted to do a PPT there and was turned away. He heard a rumor and called to confirm it. So like a school yard tattle-tale, he has to report it.

I would take him more seriously if he had actually tried to do a PPT and was turned away. Then file a simple civil suit in the local court, that would get his attention. During that process, he would be served a letter to be told what the law is and be given a chance to comply. Then attempt the PPT again. If it is a no-go then the suit proceeds. It would be simple, the judge would order him to proceed.

So, has anyone sent the owner a copy of the code stating he is required to do PPTs? Or is this just a lets burn another FFL because he is violating the law so we can feel good party? We can justify it because he is a crappy dealer and probably will not comply so lets just use the nuclear option first?

We are our own worst enemies.

[TonyNorCal]

How many of you follow every single law in this state, or do you ignore the ones you can get away with or do not like?

Since we're talking about gun laws, why don't you tell us which ones you don't follow?

[jeremiah12]

I used a bit of google-fu to see what others might have done in CA to address FFLs refusing to do PPTs.

It turns out Tenpercentfirearms addressed this some time ago: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=117004

As usually, the technicality that protects the FFLs that refuse the PPTs is the request is not done it writing and there is no consensus on what all the terms of the transaction would include. Leave it to our lawmakers to make a law that is clear as mud.

If you go to the end of the thread, there is a link to a form that was developed. Tenpercentfirearms sent it to the DOJ to get their opinion and try to get their approval and help to enforce this (as an FFL who follows the law he is directly affected) and they refused to provide any support or help.

If you read the entire thread, it is implied that the DOJ accepts the excuse that the safe is full to deny doing PPTs.

That got me to place a call to my aunt who is a retired attorney that formally worked for our state in the DOJ. She did not work in the firearms bureau. But through her contacts she was able to confirm that the problem of FFLs refusing to do PPTs is a low priority. Their focus is on real gun crimes.

Interpret that as you will. My aunt is an anti and disagrees with the Heller and McDonald decisions. She is an acquaintance of Justice Kennedy. She tolerates my shooting because my mom and her were very close and her son and my siblings were raised practically as siblings because we lived so close together. She is like my mom now since my mom passed away.

So I suggest the best course of action, use the form at the end of the thread, attempt a PPT, when it is refused, call the local DOJ field agent and see what happens. If you want to stage a protest, arrange to have several people do this. That will send a message, a shop full of people trying to PPT gumming up is business.

[Zedrek]

So I just received a phone call from the DOJ and they said that they absolutely have to do PPTs that it is not an option to opt out. The agent asked for the phone number of the shop and said that she would call and remind them of their duty to conduct PPTs. She was very friendly and totally agreed that if we have to do a PPT then they have to also.

[TonyNorCal]

So I just received a phone call from the DOJ and they said that they absolutely have to do PPTs that it is not an option to opt out. The agent asked for the phone number of the shop and said that she would call and remind them of their duty to conduct PPTs. She was very friendly and totally agreed that if we have to do a PPT then they have to also.

Perfect.

Good job. Hopefully a call sets them straight and they can follow the law like all of us. And, you've probably opened up a place for people to do PPTs.

[Captiontom]

If they refered you to USA tactical don't go there. I was charged $50 for a ppt at USA tactical which is illegal. I was refered by ace guns. I faxed a copy of my receipt to the doj this morning and the lady I talked to yesterday said she will be contacting the shop

[Zedrek]

Best option if you have the option is to promote stores that are doing the right thing. Get on Yelp and promote them. Get on Yelp and down-rate stores who won't follow the law and state your reason (this helps other stores who will have higher ratings).

Ummm, all of the stores should be doing the right thing. You don't promote drivers that stop at red lights do you?

CalDOJ isn't going to do squat to help you PPT. They like it being as difficult as possible.

Ummm, the agent didn't sound like that at all. They WANT us to conduct PPTs and not private face to face transactions.

Leave the lawbreaking LGS to sit stew and lose business - and make sure they know why those lose your business. Everytime you buy a gun-related product let them know you bought it elsewhere beacause they don't follow the law and provided PPT services they are required to do.

Or just call and report them. That let's them know too.

I don't know about you, but if a store doesn't have room to store my firearm properly in a safe them is be glad that they refer me to a different shop instead of leaving my gun floating around to get damaged or stolen.

How hard is it for them to get a safe? Also, they are insured.

Ratting them out to the doj is silly. Money talks and if you don't like it don't spend money there and they can suffer the consequences of their actions.

No, rolling over and taking it is silly.

You sound like the kid in school: "Teacher! Teacher! You forgot to give us homework!" Myob and go about your life.

Actually, IMVHO, I see the big picture differently. In my area, the very few dealers that had this policy in the past, are now out of business. I am sure this was not what put them out of business, it was their overall poor customer service. A new dealer came to town, offered better service, word got around, and the crappy LGS went bankrupt. People stopped going to the jerk and went to the place that treated them right.

Twice, while being the buyer in a PPT, I found a firearm in the store that I had been looking for for some time. In the normal chit-chat with the FFL processing the PPT, I would bring this up. Both times I was offered a substantial discount to purchase that firearm and add it to my DROS. It was a win-win. (Except my wife gave me heck for get the number of guns I bought wrong).

They won over a new customer. So whenever I am in the area, I stop by and at least purchase ammo. One is local to me and has a great reputation and openly welcomes PPTs. He has a small shop but it is always filled with customers whenever I go in. That FFL is now advertising on the local radio station I listen to and his ad always mention he is the place to do your PPTs.

I realize this is just one example.

I also believe that most FFLs will do the PPTs. I can understand if there is no other choice within a 100 miles. In this case, there are 2 other choices, 1 within a mile or 2.

Until those other two stores decide that they don't want to do PPTs either. Then what?

We have too much government intrusion into our lives these days. I grew up in CA and remember a time when there were not so many laws. People also took care of things without involving the government all that much. If you did not like how a store treated you, you shopped elsewhere. It was much harder to do that then.

All I am seeing is a power trip, the same as the politicians. You are not doing what your are supposed to do so I am going to show you I have power over you by reporting you to the government. Let the government solve the problem. Especially in the case of the OP when it did not affect him, he had not attempted to do a PPT there and was turned away. He heard a rumor and called to confirm it. So like a school yard tattle-tale, he has to report it.

I am letting the government solve the problem. That's why I called them.

I would take him more seriously if he had actually tried to do a PPT and was turned away. Then file a simple civil suit in the local court, that would get his attention. During that process, he would be served a letter to be told what the law is and be given a chance to comply. Then attempt the PPT again. If it is a no-go then the suit proceeds. It would be simple, the judge would order him to proceed.

Sorry, I'm doing something that everyone else just talks about. I'm tired of all talk and no action. I want it fixed before I need to do a PPT.

So, has anyone sent the owner a copy of the code stating he is required to do PPTs? Or is this just a lets burn another FFL because he is violating the law so we can feel good party? We can justify it because he is a crappy dealer and probably will not comply so lets just use the nuclear option first?

I told the owner that he was required to do PPTs but he choose to ignore it. Don't run a business if you aren't going to follow the rules.

We are our own worst enemies.

And people like you are the reason nothing gets fixed. That's like someone complaining about the politicians and laws but they don't vote.