Front Sight …Opinions please

[Spaceghost]

Rome wasn't built in a day, and a warrior isn't combat effective after one day of training. Yes, beginning classes don't get into the skills you mentioned, they are a foundation which the other classes build upon. You can't teach someone one handed reloading if they are learning how clear malfunctions. You can only cram so much material into a class of four days that students will take home with them.

If you think that Frontsight only offers intro classes, you are not familiar with their training. I did the four day practical rifle course last Sept. and almost upgraded my membership when the instructors were talking about the fun they have in the advanced classes. They have live fire tunnels, yes I said tunnels in which they conduct training. They also do force on force training with airsoft or paintball, I can't remember.

Having someone help you train in your home is valuable and all of the skills and stressful training is important, but please don't put don't slam a shooting school because they don't turn out commandos after one four day class, that's just not possible.

They will teach you weapons manipulation skills if you are not familiar with your firearm.

To learn how to FIGHT, you need to have people trying to shoot back. You will learn 1000X more about what it takes to stay alive by playing paintball in an urban scenario. You will EXPERIENCE what it takes to stay alive.

Furthermore, do you have a teenage kid? Buy two airsoft pistols and practice going through the house where one person searches and the other lays in ambush. You will learn the sweet spots in your own home. This will be your most likely place of battle.

The gunschools are largely "Disneyland with guns" for old guys. They can teach you so many things that will get you killed. Here is what they won't teach you about fighting a KNOWN bad guy in your house.

1. You will shoot one handed.
2. You will or better be moving.
3. You will not use your sights.
4. Your finger better be on the trigger.

Don't believe me? Try your own force on force experiment. Shooting paper targets is preparation for gun fighting. It is not gun fighting.

[USMCbrat]

I am convinced. OK, so the 4 days certificate was a gift and my only $$$ outlay is the incremental costs of hotel, food, transportation and ammo so….from those of you that are believers….a few more questions if you do not mind.

I want to take the 4 day handgun class:

1) Holster – do they need to be CCW (like a pancake) or can they be the belted hip style like a duty rig?
2) I will be using a 1911. How many mags will I need?
3) Is it cheaper to bring my own ammo or buy it there? (I understand I will need 800 rds)
4) What hotels can anyone recommend?
5) Would you fly or drive from San Jose?

Thanks guys ….this is a big help.

[MilSpec.45]

I attended the four day defensive handgun class about a year ago. It is definitely worth it. I am a much better shot now and I learned some very valuable fundamentals.
I also used a 1911 and I brought four 8 round mags, and that was sufficient. I would also recommend bringing your own ammo. You could also buy it at the wallyworld in Pahrump. I stayed at a hotel in Pahrump, which is a lot closer and cheaper than one in Vegas.

[ohsmily]

I slept in my car close to the Front Sight exterior gate. Granted, I have a Denali XL and I put an air mattress in the back with one of the seats pulled out.

[F-2_Challenger]

Front Sight has deals with the casino's in Pharump(sp) and when I was down there they only charge me 60.00 a night. As for the whole fly drive thing, I would probably just drive so you dont have to screw with a rental and checking a weapon on the plane.

As for anything else I didn't attend the class I was just down there to check it out. Seems like a great place.

[hk-p2000]

do you have to take 2 guns or 1 it's good enough and what kind of hearing protection did you guys use. Right now getting ready for April 18-19 2008. any info that I need to know.

[Quiet]

I want to take the 4 day handgun class:

1) Holster – do they need to be CCW (like a pancake) or can they be the belted hip style like a duty rig?
2) I will be using a 1911. How many mags will I need?
3) Is it cheaper to bring my own ammo or buy it there? (I understand I will need 800 rds)
4) What hotels can anyone recommend?
5) Would you fly or drive from San Jose?

Thanks guys ….this is a big help.

1) OWB or IWB holster. Day 4, drills are done from concealed. Bring a cover garment (jacket).
2) Min. 3, perfer 5.
3) Save money, bring your own ammo or buy at Wal-Mart in Vegas/Pahrump, before buying ammo from Front Sight.
4) Stay in Pahrump ($30-60 a night), it's cheaper than Vegas ($60-400 a night).
5) Maybe cheaper to fly to Vegas and rent a car than to drive there. Depends on your vehicle's MPG and cost of gas.

do you have to take 2 guns or 1 it's good enough and what kind of hearing protection did you guys use. Right now getting ready for April 18-19 2008. any info that I need to know.

One handgun is fine. Bring a backup if you don't think your primary handgun is reliable enough.
For hearing protection, I use Howard Leight R-01526.
Bring a jacket (it gets cold in the desert, expecially at night)
Bring a flashlight or two and plenty of batteries (night shooting during the 4-day course)
Bring a hat (blocks the sun, keeps brass from bouncing off your head)
Drink plenty of fluids while you are there (its in the desert, you get dehydrated)

[GJJ]

I took the FS 4 day handgun course. I have to say that it taught the fundamentals well. It would not be fair to say otherwise. I absolutely hated the macho, arrogant attitude of the chiropractor that runs the place. I also did not like the way they pressured a lonely, weak female student to fork out thousands for some "membership". It reminded me too much of cult behavior.

BUT, to be fair, the instruction was good. It sounds like they have integrated force on force into their teaching. This is good.

It takes a while to absorb the lessons of force on force. One expensive weekend is a poor approach. I believe many weekends playing paintball in urban situations and airsoft in your home can deliver the goods better.

Formal training is not always the answer. Some skills have to be learned and absorbed over time.

[zinfull]

At $2000 it a bit steep. Any thing else is great. Enjoy and take what they give you and practice this. Then take another one from some one else. and add to your knowledge.

I took the course and at the beginning it was like a bunch of robots doing "their" gun thing. At the end i was a robot. Good training on gun control and good lecture on CCw. Best part it was free and all I had to pay for was room and board. You can never have enough training.

jerry

[azndmd]

If you are staying in Pahrump....you can call the Walmart there and "reserve" ammo under your name for the Front Sight Class. They would like about 2-weeks notice. Walmart will keep the reserved ammo separated from their regular stock...but if you do not pick it up by the evening of the first day of the class that you are attending...then your reserved ammo then goes back out to their regular stock.

The 4-day defensive handgun class is a class that will take a novice shooter (or even someone who actually never shot a handgun) to a level that you will be drawing out from a holster and place a couple of shots in center mass of the frontsight designed target within 3-4 seconds of the command to shoot. You will learn a good basic way to hold and manipulate the handgun and to clear malfunctions (that is probably one of the most basic and most important skill to master). It will get you to a solid foundation of skills.

The advanced classes will train you to shoot one handed, with your off hand, draw from a holster and shoot multiple targets behind you, shoot on the move going forward, backwards, and sideway, shoot from the side or from under a barricade, shoot from a car, shoot from a sitting position, etc. The advanced tactical class is really fun, and stressful because it starts to take you out of your comfort level.



I've not taken any other formal classes except at Front Sight. I may be interested in other schools...but not after I've taken all the courses that are offered for my level of membership.

Don't worry about the sales pitch...there is one but it is low key...you are either interested or you are not...they will still treat you the same and get you thru the course that you are signed up for. Of all the new people that I've met at the courses...there has only been one person that I've met that has actually paid the full asking price ($ 1,600.00) for the course, he flew from Japan and took the full auto M-16 class in October 2006. All others that I've met have come in on certificates that were given to them as a gift or purchased...or they are members.

Have fun, listen and learn, be safe and keep an open mind to the instruction.

I've posted pics of my daughter and a friend's daughter at FS last year (see pg 39 & 40): http://64.151.69.37/calgunforum/show...=83490&page=39

By the way...my avatar is taken at Front Sight...full-auto uzi class...wow!!

[AngelDecoys]

I am convinced. OK, so the 4 days certificate was a gift and my only $$$ outlay is the incremental costs of hotel, food, transportation and ammo so….from those of you that are believers….a few more questions if you do not mind.

I want to take the 4 day handgun class:

1) Holster – do they need to be CCW (like a pancake) or can they be the belted hip style like a duty rig?
2) I will be using a 1911. How many mags will I need?
3) Is it cheaper to bring my own ammo or buy it there? (I understand I will need 800 rds)
4) What hotels can anyone recommend?
5) Would you fly or drive from San Jose?

Thanks guys ….this is a big help.

BTW - Background check is only once a year.

1. Holster bring two, 1 for outside the waist band, one for concealment. You can buy them at the proshop on site as well. Recommend some type of kydex holster. I prefer bladetech or serpa depending. Don't forget a flashlight and extra batteries. Jacket - fishing vest works or light wind breaker.

2. Magazines - You'll need at least two, but I'd bring between 4-6. If you have one that's been dropped a bunch of times and is you're 'bad' magazine, bring it for drills. Personally I hate having to drop good mags into the dirt.

3. Ammo - Well it depends on who you're going with. I'm a Diamond member so I get a huge percentage off my purchases. Its actually cheaper for me to buy onsite than anyplace else. Natuarally, I make purchases for everyone who I travel with. Barring that, Walmart will probably be your best bet over the proshop. They will check casings for reloads so be sure they are factory new. (Or be sneaky, and check in the 1 new box you brought).

4. Hotels. Barr None get reserved into the Best Western early. Free breakfast in the morning. Last time I was there I stayed at the Saddle West. 1, they want you to leave your gear in the car, and 2 their non-smoking rooms are evil. Slept in my car last time instead of the room.

5. From San Jose? I leave from Manteca and it takes me around 6.5 hours stopping only for gas. 3 tanks there and back. If the car is full, driving is by far cheaper, and has the added benefit of no hassle at the airport.

PS - Not for a 4 day, but on a 2 day camping is the way to go. 3 tanks of gas, oatmeal and coffee both mornings, subway for lunch both days, and 1 steak dinner in town. Best sleep ever, and except for ammo, I think it cost me under $200 last trip. Not bad for a weekend.

[azndmd]

PS - Not for a 4 day, but on a 2 day camping is the way to go. 3 tanks of gas, oatmeal and coffee both mornings, subway for lunch both days, and 1 steak dinner in town. Best sleep ever, and except for ammo, I think it cost me under $200 last trip. Not bad for a weekend.

boy...that's hardcore...I have to enjoy the comforts of a room and shower...

+1 for the Best Western/Pahrump Station...they also have free wireless internet...but hookup is sometimes hit or miss.

[edsel6502]

I did the 4 day a few months ago. please note as mentioned this is the entry level class. So if you've taken other classes before beware. But keep and open mind and be prepared to sometimes be frustrated by the Frontsight way of doing things ie. controlled pair and certain malfunction drills come to mind. As all things just try it their way and then use what works for you.

to answer your questions.

Holster. Its pretty much up to you. Part of the training is learning to shoot with outerwear on. So use what you have or if you think you will be CCW-ing use your usual rig.

Mags. I would bring at least 6. You should have time to fill the mags between strings. You will probably only need 3 on you. But plan for malfunctions.

Ammo. I drove my ammo down. But you can either buy at the pro shop or go to the Bass Pro in Vegas. Its cheaper to buy at the Bass Pro than at the pro shop. ps. they have no problem if you shoot bi-metal.

We couldn't get a hotel in Pahrump. Like idiots we said we were bringing guns so some hotels in Pahrump said no. We ended up staying at the Best Western in Vegas. It will be a 45min drive into Pahrump each way. But I'm sure there are hotels in Pahrump which cater specially for FrontSight students.

I drove from Sunnyvale. Since I was the gun and ammo mule for the group. It depends on whether you're bringing ammo or if the airlines you are using is going to be a tard about you checking in a gun.

Don't forget a good tactical light for the night shoot. Be prepared to bring your own lunch. As there is no way of buying food there. And you can't really drive out to get food and back.

Have a good time. I did for the most part.

[Nemo]

This is very useful info, guys. Many thanks.

I'll have to check my schedule and see when I can take a 4-day pistol intro this year...Bay Area to Pahrump would be a great motorcycle road trip, too.

[zinfull]

On the holster type FS teaches a draw which is vertical. It is not much of a deal just a heads up. I used a Fobus paddle holster with a slight angle forward and I could tell the difference from what was being taught. Also do not bring anything smaller than a 9mm. Enjoy

Jerry