Avoid Irvington Arms

[faterikcartman]

what the ...

It always cracks me up when people post things like "you must be full of #$%@ because so-and-so has always treated me great..." I imagine Eva Braun could have said something like "why the fuss about the Jews, sweet Adolf has always been great to me."

So my brow furrows when someone complains about a vendor and everyone chimes in with how great the vendor treated them -- as if that has any bearing on how this guy got treated.

The test is not how did things go when everything ran smooth, but how did everyone respond when crap hit the fan.

I'm sure if either the seller or buyer misplaced that bolt one of them would have spoken up and the OP would have deleted his original post. So it isn't hard to imagine what happened to the bolt. (If one of you does find it, however, you better apologize from the highest rooftops.)

When the FFL offers to do transfers for free, rather than $50, or however much they charge, I will join the ranks of those who don't think the FFL shares some responsibility.

[raw24]

What is interesting is that AKAIK the seller has not stepped up and offered to replace the bolt.
Crap happens all the time, and everybody begins pointing fingers, but at the end of the day the seller is responsible for making sure the product arrives as advertised.
At the very least the seller should offer to split the loss, but if this was my deal I would have gotten a new bolt for the OP or refunded the cost of the bolt.

[Gryff]

the seller is responsible for making sure the product arrives as advertised.

True, but the buyer didn't make sure to verify that everything was there as promised before a third party opened the box. At this point, there is no way to know who was actually at fault.

[plan-b]

So my brow furrows when someone complains about a vendor and everyone chimes in with how great the vendor treated them -- as if that has any bearing on how this guy got treated.

Your reasoning works, but in some cases the way others have been treated actually does have bearing. It all depends on how the original complaint was framed.

If the original post was something like: "I bought a rifle and it's missing the bolt. Can I get suggestions on how to work with the FFL to get it cleared up?"

Then there really wouldn't be that much need for people to share their positive (and possibly irrelevant) experiences with said FFL. In that case, the focus of the thread would be on a solution.

In this case, the post (at least the subject line) focuses on the FFL's attitude in addition to finding a potential solution. So there's naturally going to be those that have had good experiences chiming in to help temper the argument and sentiment.

I feel for the OP. And for the record, I do think that IA should make a better effort to help out here. Anyway, I'm not invested enough to continue in this thread so I will bow out now with the hope that the OP gets the situation corrected in his favor.

PS. While logically sound, comparing a missing rifle part to an attempt at genocide is worlds apart.

[Bad Voodoo]

Allegation: IA lost a bolt.
Fact: Buyer did not inspect merchandise prior to leaving premises.

Next time inspect your stuff. At least then you can put the onus on IA and the seller instead of having zero ground to stand on.
This has nothing to do with honesty. It looks like each entity in this transaction failed to do their share of the work. The seller shipped items in a box of mostly packaging material, IA did not inventory the items against the packing list, the buyer did not inspect prior to leaving the shop. The only entity with a significant interest in the gun is the buyer yet it is pretty clear you did nothing to ensure you got what you paid for.

I can only parrot the preceding response to the OP. No offense, but YOU should take personal responsibility for not inspecting your rifle while at the shop. You can beat the dead horse re: IA's employees all day long, however yours were the eyes that inspected the rifle (and packing slip, I assume), and yours the hands and arms that carried that rifle out IA's door. When you did walk out their door your right to complain, on a public forum no less, should have been forfeited. Live and learn, OP.

IA is one of our better local FFLs, and I can personally attest to their normal quality and experience.

[NAVYDVR1]

It is against the law to start a DROS before he has the gun in his possession.Call DOJ and he will be fined and his license will be suspended.It will cost him a fortune for his rude and unprofessional behavior.

[ke6guj]

It is against the law to start a DROS before he has the gun in his possession.Call DOJ and he will be fined and his license will be suspended.It will cost him a fortune for his rude and unprofessional behavior.

Really, against the law? Many dealer do the exact same thing without issue. CADOJ may not like it, and may question it during an audit, but AFAIK, it is not illegal. DO you have any PC, CCR, or case law you can point to tht shows it is illegal?

[alpalwal]

Allegation: IA lost a bolt.
Fact: Buyer did not inspect merchandise prior to leaving premises.

Next time inspect your stuff. At least then you can put the onus on IA and the seller instead of having zero ground to stand on.
This has nothing to do with honesty. It looks like each entity in this transaction failed to do their share of the work. The seller shipped items in a box of mostly packaging material, IA did not inventory the items against the packing list, the buyer did not inspect prior to leaving the shop. The only entity with a significant interest in the gun is the buyer yet it is pretty clear you did nothing to ensure you got what you paid for.

After I got the rifle and took it home I immediately took everything out and then found out the bolt was missing. I should have looked at it at the store, but it wouldn't have made a difference. There is no way that it was lost after I took possession of it and I called less than 2 hours after picking it up from the store.

If I had found out the bolt was missing while still in the store, I believe they would have told me they would look for it and then eventually I'd be in the exact same position I am in now.

snip snip

Not at all. We are human and mistakes are made. It sounds likely that the dealer accidentally threw it away, but there is no way you can rule out the buyer accidentally leaving it out.

I'm not suggesting anything about your honesty or the sellers honesty. Haven't you ever been 1000 percent sure of something only to embarrassingly find that you were wrong, I certainly have.

Irvington should have handled it differently, ie "We looked around quite a bit, and are pretty careful about that kind of thing, just to be fair how about we buy a replacement, and you pay our cost"

or "you pay half"

I dunno, just my thoughts

If I had gotten any response like that I would have been fine. Crap happens all the time, it's just life. But they won't even consider that they could potentially be wrong and so it's all on me.

That exact CA attitude is one reason I can live out of CA half the time.

CA would benefit by eliminating about 95% of the attorneys in the state.

-hanko

Yeah, I'm definitely not suing them or anything of the sort. I agree with you that we need less lawyers.

Really, against the law? Many dealer do the exact same thing without issue. CADOJ may not like it, and may question it during an audit, but AFAIK, it is not illegal. DO you have any PC, CCR, or case law you can point to tht shows it is illegal?

Whether it's legal or not, I'm not trying to shut them down. I won't be giving them any more business but I think it's too far for me to try to completely wreck them.

[Mendo223]

these are the tough decisions one must make as a business owner. luckily ive never gotten the kind of complaints like "parts were missing" etc. I take extra care with every package i send out, i even put invoice detailing whats in there.

with this kind of stuff you never know. im not saying the OP is a thief, but theres alot of shiest people out there. if they get a whiff that you replace parts no questions asked...i could easily see people claiming "hey the part was missing blah blah" and who can you blame? First off Irvington wasnt aware of the specifics of your shipment, so they did not know to search for loose parts when they inspected it. Also, i believe that as the customer, you should have thoroughly inspected before leaving. Once you left, you kind of loose your insurance policy. as a business owner, you never know when a customer went home and schemed and decided to call back and try to complain to get free stuff.

what if the mailman took it? what if a customer took it at irvington arms when they werent looking? what if irvington accidently threw it out, etc etc etc the situations go on and on. theres no police or detectives so no way to prove it.

theres no way to solve the situation than for someone to step up and take the loss. what ensues is a nice game of musical chairs..dont get stuck with the blame chair at any costs. hope the guy isnt a member of CG and move on. in this case its a CGer, and thousands of gun owners will read his complaints.

since the bolt isnt exactly thaaaat expensive, as a business owner i might just send one "at cost" or free to quiet up the stink about it.....but sometimes you gotta know when to tell a customer the harsh facts of life....

in regards to IA, ive had nothing but good experiances there, the older guy used to have an attitude but after some complaints i noticed he is much more polite and helpful.

[gbp]

Whatever
make sure you headspace the new bolt

[gotime]

A lot of people are overlooking the fact that the box was OPENED ALREADY when the OP got it. So regardless of when he looked through it, Irvington Arms would have avoided all liability, whether it be at the store or when he got home.

IA failed when the employee didn't check the parts with the included packing list. Especially when something as important as the bolt was missing... imagine how the same guy would have reacted if he opened a box for a pistol and the slide was missing

[gotime]

luckily ive never gotten the kind of complaints like "parts were missing" etc. I take extra care with every package i send out, i even put invoice detailing whats in there.

.... Irvington wasnt aware of the specifics of your shipment, so they did not know to search for loose parts when they inspected it.

If you are going to be the first person to open a shipment WITH A PACKING SLIP (we've gone over that the seller in fact included one) then you should check to see everything is there as to avoid situations just like this.

[Mendo223]

i just remembered that once i did have a customer complain that certain ordered merchandise was missing. i was severely skeptical, but i ended up taking a 100 dollar profit loss because of that sale and gave him credit. being a business owner sucks sometimes...

If you are going to be the first person to open a shipment WITH A PACKING SLIP (we've gone over that the seller in fact included one) then you should check to see everything is there as to avoid situations just like this.

yea thats true. since the box had a packing slip...IA should have checked all parts. was the seller using packing peanuts for shipment? those suck for shipping stuff...they are severely messy. i can see IA not doing full inspection because they didnt wanna get peanuts all over the counters. i use roll bubble wrap for my stuff...its see through, clean, and enables for easy removal and inspection of merchandise

[alpalwal]

From what I gathered it was a bunch of types of packing materials - paper, bubbles, peanuts, etc.

[faterikcartman]

PS. While logically sound, comparing a missing rifle part to an attempt at genocide is worlds apart.

That's what everyone says when they don't understand the analogy or don't like where it leads. Extreme examples like this highlight the principles at issue where more mild examples allow people too much wiggle room and excuses like "you don't understand the nuance..."

Again, the store opened the box, the store charged for the service.

If I buy a blender at Target and come home and the blade is missing I call the maker of the blender.

But if the box is already opened and Target put a label on it saying they checked it out then I'm going to blame Target.

What I'm not going to buy is that in either case you are going to tell me you blame yourself for not checking the box while you're still at Target.

Is the Target analogy worlds closer?

What might need to happen to be fair to everyone is for the FFL to require people to stop by the day packages are delivered to sign off on condition and inventory the box.

Checking whilst still in the store at time of pick up would probably have been pointless as I get the impression that he would have been told the shipper never sent it -- but who knows. I guess I have to concede he "should have" checked -- but just don't see that being reasonable either, or helpful. And I suppose, since everyone takes this stuff personally -- probably me too -- I should clarify I don't necessarily think the store should have eaten the whole cost, but some sort of splitting, at cost replacement, or ??? should have been attempted. If I owned the store I would have called the shipper, reviewed the video tape for the day, grilled my employees, and tried to get to the bottom of it. I would not risk my business's good name over a careless employee or $150.