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duraglock
06-04-2007, 10:45 PM
should any updates be moved here since its a current case?

hoffmang
06-04-2007, 11:55 PM
Wait 30-35 days please.

-Gene

Boomer1961
06-09-2007, 10:58 PM
Ahhh...

The legendary Milpitas lowers.

Kind of like Big Foot, UFO's and they guy on the grassy knoll.:D

hoffmang
06-09-2007, 11:02 PM
Two weeks.

(Actually probably three...)

-Gene

adamsreeftank
06-09-2007, 11:53 PM
Ahhh...

The legendary Milpitas lowers.

Kind of like Big Foot, UFO's and they guy on the grassy knoll.:D


Except I've seen them.

It was a brief encounter, but one I'll never forget.

I'll always have a special place set aside in my safe for them incase they ever make their way back home.

adamsreeftank
06-09-2007, 11:54 PM
Two weeks.

(Actually probably three...)

-Gene

Go Gene go!

Creeping Incrementalism
06-10-2007, 12:01 AM
should any updates be moved here since its a current case?

It will become current in a year and a half when the statute of limitations runs out and the DOJ is forced to return the "evidence". Don't forget, because the state will melt them down if they aren't claimed in time.

hoffmang
06-10-2007, 12:28 AM
Do you have a code reference on the statute you are referring to?

-Gene

Fjold
06-10-2007, 9:00 AM
Two Weeks!

Anonymous Coward
06-10-2007, 11:08 AM
Do you have a code reference on the statute you are referring to?

-Gene


"PC 801. Except as provided in Sections 799 and 800, prosecution for an
offense punishable by imprisonment in the state prison shall be
commenced within three years after commission of the offense."

799 deals with murder and 800 deals with long term offenses.

hoffmang
06-10-2007, 11:39 AM
Thanks AC.

-Gene

Creeping Incrementalism
06-11-2007, 6:37 PM
Gene, also, a while back there was a thread where someone posted a phone call he had with Allison, and she said the same thing about the time frame.

hoffmang
06-11-2007, 7:29 PM
Yep. I just wanted to make sure I had the Penal Code handy on that. Doubt it'll matter.

-Gene

Wizard99
06-12-2007, 8:41 AM
"PC 801. Except as provided in Sections 799 and 800, prosecution for an
offense punishable by imprisonment in the state prison shall be
commenced within three years after commission of the offense."

799 deals with murder and 800 deals with long term offenses.

Does this 3 year requirement mean that if someone where to have brought high capacity magazines into the state and didn't get caught for 3 years, they couldn't prosecute since possesion isn't a crime and PC 801 states that prosecution must occure withing 3 years of the commision of the crime not the discovery of the crime?

Just food for thought.

C.G.
06-12-2007, 12:18 PM
Does this 3 year requirement mean that if someone where to have brought high capacity magazines into the state and didn't get caught for 3 years, they couldn't prosecute since possesion isn't a crime and PC 801 states that prosecution must occure withing 3 years of the commision of the crime not the discovery of the crime?

Just food for thought.

No, that is an on-going crime if you did not posses the mags prior to 2000.

hoffmang
06-12-2007, 12:47 PM
C.G.

Since possession is not a crime, just the "transactions" I do think they DA would have a hard time prosecuting 3 years after an import or sale.

-Gene

Racefiend
06-12-2007, 12:49 PM
But the posession is not illegal, it is the act of importing or manufacturing. Therefore, if that occured over 3 years ago, then I owuld think they could not prosecute.

edit: NM, Hoffmang beat me to it.

GW
06-14-2007, 9:23 PM
Wait 30-35 days please.

-Gene

We'll get them on June 39?
Actually, I'm afraid I'll see that date before I see my lowers..:mad:

hoffmang
06-14-2007, 10:25 PM
Hang in there GW.

-Gene

Wulf
06-17-2007, 10:30 AM
Just out of curiosity's sake, what happens if the date comes for return and they cant fine one or more, or perhaps a lower is significantly damaged. What's the procedure there?

hoffmang
06-17-2007, 10:52 AM
DOJ would owe you a replacement or the equivalent cash value.

-Gene

TacFan
06-17-2007, 11:02 AM
DOJ would owe you a replacement or the equivalent cash value.

-Gene

+ interest ?

How would they compensate people with opportunity cost, interest, inflation ?

bwiese
06-17-2007, 11:29 AM
Just out of curiosity's sake, what happens if the date comes for return and they cant fine one or more, or perhaps a lower is significantly damaged. What's the procedure there?

File stolen property report with CHP.

Matt640h
06-18-2007, 8:18 AM
Gene, also, a while back there was a thread where someone posted a phone call he had with Allison, and she said the same thing about the time frame.

That was me. Here is the thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=42653&highlight=firearm

And here is my post: Nothing has happened as far as I know. Case officer is John Marsh, case number is F1706-2U. For the last 2 months I have been sending emails and calling them with status requests about this case.

My most recent call was to Allyson. It went a little something like this:

Me: So how is the case going and when can I expect my firearm back?
Ally: It is in on-going investigation and I can't say much more than that.
Me: It has been over 9 months, how long could it take?
Ally: Statute of limitations is 3 years.
Me: So I can expect my firearm back in 3 years or sooner?
Ally: You might not get the firearm back if it was not sold to you leagally. (she didn't expand on this but I'm sure they are trying to prove that the guns passed through the hands of a distributor that wasn't an FFL [Ben])

I haven't done it yet but I think we need to get the NRA involved. My thoughts are this:

They origianally showed up in Milpitas because the group buy stuff was in full throttle and they were hoping to find anything wrong that they could to stop it. They found the safe to be to small. Took are firearms. Safe issue was resolved but they aren't giving us those guns back. They will keep them until one of three things happen:

1. 3 years go by and they have to give them back.
2. NRA or some Political entity pressures them to give them back.
3. Legislation or clarification in legislation renders these guns illegal and they never give them back (I'm sure this is what they are hoping for).

Even if option 1 or 2 happens, I wouldn't put it past them to have an undisclosed or unannounced time period to pick up the guns. Then at the end of this time period destroy any that weren't picked up.

joe_sun
06-18-2007, 6:06 PM
I keep saying that this is the ONE lower I'll build into an OLL but I've got a feeling that even if I see it again.. it will be all torn up.

hoffmang
06-18-2007, 6:35 PM
Patience Joe. Patience.

-Gene

artherd
06-18-2007, 11:54 PM
+ interest ?

How would they compensate people with opportunity cost, interest, inflation ?

I am going to leave the issue of exactly what damages are to be rewarded up to the trial court.

Alison's letters open her (personally...) up to liability for Reliance damanges, this could include the cost of your trip, cost of lower, cost of funds during the interveaning time, etc.

The trial court could determine DOJ's conduct as significantly egregious as to be punishible by punative award as well.

DOJ should have just grabbed one or two, then it wouldn't have been worth fighting.

tpliquid1
06-21-2007, 9:49 PM
how do we know what our Sn are?

joe_sun
06-21-2007, 9:58 PM
how do we know what our Sn are?

When this went down I called the FFL and got the serial from him. I guess he'd have to keep the paperwork on this.

five.five-six
06-21-2007, 10:16 PM
Two Weeks!

TWO WEEKS!!!

Creeping Incrementalism
06-23-2007, 11:21 PM
TWO WEEKS!!!

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/pdd/total_recall_large_03.jpg

thedrickel
07-01-2007, 10:19 PM
Wait 30-35 days please.

-Gene

27 close enough?

hoffmang
07-02-2007, 12:02 AM
Nope. :tank:

-Gene

stator
07-05-2007, 8:45 AM
Wait 30-35 days please.

-Gene

31 days and counting. Would it not be easier to just post a court docket number and let those read documents submitted?

M. Sage
07-05-2007, 11:47 AM
This is almost as bad as the 10-day wait for a new gun!!!

hoffmang
07-10-2007, 8:20 PM
Just this evening an important and positive step on the road to the release of the Milpitas lowers occurred. I need to be a bit cryptic, but I would expect more news before the end of the month.

-Gene

SemiAutoSam
07-10-2007, 8:55 PM
I had a feeling Arnold would be involved with this.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/pdd/total_recall_large_03.jpg

Boarding-Team-Leader
07-10-2007, 9:39 PM
How much time is left in this month? 3 more weeks!:D
BTL
Always good to hear an update regarding the status of my first OLL.
BTL

stator
07-11-2007, 5:11 PM
This board has a 60 second timeout between replies and I have too many replies owed. So for those many I have not replied to, I'm sorry. I will post the jest of the information I have here:

The F* word came up and not the four letter word variety. This was the first time the forfeiture word was used (at least for me as I may have missed a post here on CG), along with the usual reoccurring BS that many of us heard in the past.

I can only speculate that the DOJ believes that these seized lowers will be forfeited, either voluntary, involuntary, or whatever other method there is, and will be destroyed. I can see it now - Moonbeam next run for office touting how he keep thousands of deadly assault weapons off our streets and into the jaws of Cap'n Crunch.

Well, for me, I have my O/U shotgun and sporting clays to keep my occupied. It's time for a Panoche run and someone from the valley told me of the legal spot for the closure season (somewhere down towards Tummey Hills (sp?)). I think I found the spot via satellite.

GW
07-18-2007, 2:17 AM
Any new developments?

hoffmang
07-18-2007, 9:37 AM
We are inside a comment loop and I'm going to be on vacation next week. I'll have more news in 3 weeks, but I am making progress.

-Gene

GW
07-18-2007, 9:17 PM
Thanks, Gene
Have a great time

Wulf
07-20-2007, 11:46 AM
"3 weeks" !!!!

That's heresy. How about you say "one and a half 2weeks" ?

adamsreeftank
07-22-2007, 12:26 AM
...
I can only speculate that the DOJ believes that these seized lowers will be forfeited, either voluntary, involuntary, or whatever other method there is, and will be destroyed. ...

I personally don't plan on forfeiting my personal property to the DOJ, so I guess that leaves involuntary forfeiture, which sounds an awful lot like a euphemism for theft.

Boarding-Team-Leader
07-22-2007, 11:12 AM
If we all knowingly made illegal purchases, the DOJ should charge each and everyone of us. If Ben is not convicted of any wrong doing and if the sellers of the lowers and the FFL in Milpitas have not been charged and convicted of any wrongdoing, how can our OLL purchases be illegal? With 200 plus lowers in question, how many individuals made purchases? Would the DOJ have to charge 50 people? 100? more?

Get over it, pull their heads out of the sand, apologize, make whatever personnel changes are due considering what has transpired and give us back our property! I want to build up a competition service rifle using my lower.
BTL

Rob P.
07-22-2007, 6:18 PM
I don't know anything about this so forgive me if I'm saying something which has already been done or considered....

Why not write a very nicely worded letter to the BOF/DOJ stating that you are anxiously awaiting the end of the statutory period so that you can reclaim your property? Be sure to state that you have no intention of forfeiting your property and that you intend to claim it. Send copies of any forms required to claim the property (stamped "copy") to show your good faith and preparation for the return of same.

Puts the DOJ on notice that they'd better not try to claim forfeiture and destroy the lowers at midnight after the time expires.

Fjold
07-22-2007, 7:07 PM
6/04/2007
"Wait 30-35 days please." -Gene
That makes it due by July 4-9
6/09/2007
"Two weeks.(Actually probably three...)" -Gene
That makes it due June 23 -30

7/10/2007
"....I expect more news before the end of the month." -Gene
Now it's July 31st.

7/18/2007
"I'll have more news in 3 weeks, but I am making progress." -Gene
That makes it August 9th



That is a heck of a "Two weeks"

wilit
07-22-2007, 8:11 PM
6/04/2007
"Wait 30-35 days please." -Gene
That makes it due by July 4-9
6/09/2007
"Two weeks.(Actually probably three...)" -Gene
That makes it due June 23 -30

7/10/2007
"....I expect more news before the end of the month." -Gene
Now it's July 31st.

7/18/2007
"I'll have more news in 3 weeks, but I am making progress." -Gene
That makes it August 9th



That is a heck of a "Two weeks"

What's that saying about the speed the wheels of justice move at? :rolleyes:

thedrickel
07-23-2007, 12:06 AM
What's that saying about the speed the wheels of justice move at? :rolleyes:

Lawyers tend to move pretty slow when they're not working on contingency.

EBWhite
07-23-2007, 12:17 AM
There should be a refund to all buyers. This has taken way too long.

bwiese
07-23-2007, 2:31 AM
There should be a refund to all buyers. This has taken way too long.

Yes, the DOJ should refund the buyers' money for appropriated legal property.

But it appears you are saying the group buy organizer should - and you are mistaken. He did everything legally, and got whacked by "an act of God" by out of control agents.

Every purchaser went into the group buy with eyes wide open and was well-advised of risk given the initial politically controversial nature of an otherwise-legal item.

Since you apparently weren't in the group buy, your assertions are not warranted, relevant or useful. The group buy organizer and others are busting their asses to get this resolved.

M. Sage
07-23-2007, 5:57 PM
He did everything legally, and got whacked by "an act of God" by out of control agents.

Hey, don't feed our favorite agents' complexes.... :p

hoffmang
07-23-2007, 9:12 PM
Just a point of order.

Between 6/30 and 7/10 I posted that something very beneficial had happened that I couldn't fully disclose. That there takes a bit more time for the next step should be no surprise.

Candor is necessary when one believes that folks will make the right decision. If the right decision isn't made, the next steps will be matters of public record not unlike the OAL Petition. This will be resolved during 2007 and probably much sooner.

-Gene

XDshooter
07-24-2007, 12:41 AM
This will be resolved during 2007 and probably much sooner.

-Gene


Wow Gene, SOONER than 2007. You are the man. :p

John S
07-24-2007, 6:14 AM
I must be having a flashback!

I would have sworn I went through this about a year and a half ago? ;)

Hunter
07-24-2007, 10:18 AM
There should be a refund to all buyers. ....

How would that happen??

Since this was a group buy, the person/firm that received payment for the lowers was the person/firm that was selling the lower originally from somewhere outside of CA. Now since the seller delivered the lowers (in this case to the CA FFL dealer for transfer) and to date the original seller has not had any lowers returned to them, why would that person/firm refund the money???

Kestryll
07-24-2007, 10:31 AM
How would that happen??

Since this was a group buy, the person/firm that received payment for the lowers was the person/firm that was selling the lower originally from somewhere outside of CA. Now since the seller delivered the lowers (in this case to the CA FFL dealer for transfer) and to date the original seller has not had any lowers returned to them, why would that person/firm refund the money???

It couldn't happen for several reasons you listed and some others.
It shouldn't happen because the one's responsible for this in the first place are the DOJ officials who decided to seize legal receivers. Unless you can make them refund the money there is no just way to do it.

Refund discussion in this is not about being Just or doing what's 'right', it's about wanting to blame someone, hold them accountable for DOJ's actions and make someone pay money out.
Someone has to be the scapegoat since the DOJ is beyond the scope of most individuals to engage so the easier target is somone in the group buy.

stator
07-24-2007, 5:27 PM
Someone has to be the scapegoat since the DOJ is beyond the scope of most individuals to engage so the easier target is somone in the group buy.

Nothing like attacking the members of your forum by implying they are mentally incompetent.

Scarecrow Repair
07-24-2007, 6:07 PM
Nothing like attacking the members of your forum by implying they are mentally incompetent.

Nothing liking confusing the issue.

Just like any other community, there are plenty of incompetent people on this forum, and just as in real life, everybody is incompetent some part of the time. Yours truly included, of course, so taking my word for it that I myself am incompetent brings to mind the old parable about the two guards, one of whom always tells the truth and the other who always lies.

But I digress.

There are people on here who can't even put words on paper to write letters to the DoJ without copying word for word from someone else. You can list all the talking points in little detail or great detail or anywhere in between, yet they will not write a letter unless they can copy someone else's example word for word. They make you wonder if they hold the envelope out to Mommy to lick the stamp.

There are people on here who parrot "communist" and "socialist" and "libtard" and "defeatokrat" and have no comprehension of what any of those words mean. They just like hurling insults and ganging up on invisible enemies. It is so much more satisfying than actually engaging brain cells.

And there are people who had nothing to do with the Milpitas group buy who think those who did should follow their course of action. That's leadership for you!

What do you think this community is, a bunch of Perfect People from a Robert Heinlein novel?

Kestryll
07-24-2007, 6:20 PM
Nothing like attacking the members of your forum by implying they are mentally incompetent.


My but we're reading a bit more in to that then is there aren't we?

Those that organized, arranged and fronted this bnuy have been denigrated and called thieves and worse for what the DOJ has done.
They have been castigated for not somehow making the DOJ return the lowers immediately.

Now because the DOJ has chosen to drag this out as long as it can there is a call for refunds, but from who?
There are only a few people that could be considered; the DOJ, the Distributor, the FFL or the one that fronted the buy.
Guess which one has been hammered here.

No matter what you want to read in to my words the simple fact that they are addressing is that while the DOJ overstepped themselves, illegally confiscated legal property and has refused to return it several here have chosen to place the blame and the responsibility for getting the items back solely on one or two members.
Due to the aggrevating and frustrating nature of this mess some have gone looking for someone to blame and by picking someone other then the DOJ they are making those individuals in to scapegoats. Deny if you can that the anger and accusations made towards Ben and others rightly should fall on the DOJ and not them. Sadly this is a side effect of the anger and frustration felt and it clouds reason.

My words may point out the unfortunate side effects of that frustration and anger but they do not refer to anyone as 'mentally incompetent'.
Quite frankly we wouldn't be in this scenario if the members of this forum were incompetent.

drawn
07-24-2007, 6:37 PM
Nothing liking confusing the issue.

And there are people who had nothing to do with the Milpitas group buy who think those who did should follow their course of action. That's leadership for you!

What do you think this community is, a bunch of Perfect People from a Robert Heinlein novel?

I am an outsider in this topic and am quite frankly envious. from a collectors view it is perceivable that this documented story will ad to the value of these lowers when they are returned and more so since this has the potential to be part of an even larger Story.:patriot:

Boarding-Team-Leader
07-24-2007, 11:31 PM
My but we're reading a bit more in to that then is there aren't we?

Those that organized, arranged and fronted this bnuy have been denigrated and called thieves and worse for what the DOJ has done.
They have been castigated for not somehow making the DOJ return the lowers immediately.

Now because the DOJ has chosen to drag this out as long as it can there is a call for refunds, but from who?
There are only a few people that could be considered; the DOJ, the Distributor, the FFL or the one that fronted the buy.
Guess which one has been hammered here.

No matter what you want to read in to my words the simple fact that they are addressing is that while the DOJ overstepped themselves, illegally confiscated legal property and has refused to return it several here have chosen to place the blame and the responsibility for getting the items back solely on one or two members.
Due to the aggrevating and frustrating nature of this mess some have gone looking for someone to blame and by picking someone other then the DOJ they are making those individuals in to scapegoats. Deny if you can that the anger and accusations made towards Ben and others rightly should fall on the DOJ and not them. Sadly this is a side effect of the anger and frustration felt and it clouds reason.

My words may point out the unfortunate side effects of that frustration and anger but they do not refer to anyone as 'mentally incompetent'.
Quite frankly we wouldn't be in this scenario if the members of this forum were incompetent.
Duh....What he said:confused:

artherd
07-25-2007, 12:47 PM
I am an outsider in this topic and am quite frankly envious. from a collectors view it is perceivable that this documented story will ad to the value of these lowers when they are returned and more so since this has the potential to be part of an even larger Story.:patriot:

Needless to say, I'll be keeping mine, I've spent about 10x what their worth each :)

jmlivingston
07-25-2007, 2:31 PM
Ben, you should take one and have it placed on a plaque and hung on a wall.

John

stator
07-31-2007, 1:55 PM
I personally don't plan on forfeiting my personal property to the DOJ, so I guess that leaves involuntary forfeiture, which sounds an awful lot like a euphemism for theft.

I believe any action taken by our DOJ other than returning the lowers to Rob and allowing the DROS to continue is governmental theft.

The problem that I see stems from our DOJ's steadfast opinion that we (those of us to paid and were in the DROS period) are not owners. I can only speculate that who our DOJ see's as the owners have to be on a short list of Ben, Rob, and whoever shipped the lowers into CA.

If any of these individuals state to our DOJ that they do not own the OLLs and thus are unwilling to claim them, our DOJ could conceivably destroy the OLLs as "unclaimed". Manufacturing such a scenario is something I do not put our DOJ above.

The other scenario is that the DOJ leaning on one person by putting all the weight of ownership on him or her and the impending prosecution, but then saying "we can make this all go away if you agree to our terms of...". I think if you have been following my posts, you can figure out the deal terms.

I do not believe our DOJ has much to prosecute on based upon Ben's and other comments here. So, I believe the DOJ strategy is to get those OLLs off our streets to make them "safer", ahem.

-- the words "safer" is quoted for those, like me, who do not subscribe to such false beliefs.

hoffmang
07-31-2007, 2:01 PM
stator,

I can promise you that the question of ownership is already being correctly challenged in a way that will not allow BoF to take a serious position along the lines you're outlining.

Commercial law is old and well understood and BoF will either be doing the right thing shortly or forced to.

-Gene

artherd
07-31-2007, 9:17 PM
The other scenario is that the DOJ leaning on one person by putting all the weight of ownership on him or her and the impending prosecution, but then saying "we can make this all go away if you agree to our terms of...". I think if you have been following my posts, you can figure out the deal terms.
They've already tried that.
They were told to go pound sand.

The ownership issue is a matter of settled law anyway, the buyers own these recievers. I happen to own 2.

hoffmang
07-31-2007, 11:41 PM
And I happen to own two as well....

-Gene

GW
08-03-2007, 7:48 PM
And I happen to own two as well....

-Gene

For that matter, so do I!
Thanks for fighting the good fight, Gene & Ben

artherd
08-07-2007, 12:22 AM
And I happen to own two as well....

-Gene

And I 'suspect' that you are, like me, ready and willing to spend much more than the value of the lowers in question to get our property back.

Kalbi
08-07-2007, 9:07 PM
Is there actually anything going on?

Is there anything that I can do?

I do not want to just let this go.

hoffmang
08-07-2007, 9:26 PM
Yes there is something going on.

There isn't anything you can do just yet. Hopefully we will not need any assistance, but it may come to needing some effort. You'll hear it here.

It will not be let go of.

-Gene

artherd
08-07-2007, 11:38 PM
My only suggestion for assistance; call DOJ daily asking where your property is?

GW
08-23-2007, 6:01 PM
Well, they're still holding mine
"Pending the outcome of the investigation"
And they won't say when the "investigation" will be concluded
BS!

hoffmang
08-23-2007, 6:31 PM
Just a little longer GW. I'm actively working on this and will have shareable news in the next 30 days or less.

-Gene

John S
08-24-2007, 6:52 PM
Well, they're still holding mine
"Pending the outcome of the investigation"
And they won't say when the "investigation" will be concluded
BS!

Figure about 18 months. That's when the DOJís time runs out........unless of coarse there is some kind of plea-bargain or other development in the mean time.

Some folks give themselves too much credit. The DOJ is who they are and they operate in the manner they wish.

hoffmang
08-24-2007, 7:17 PM
John,

This will be resolved well before 18 months.

-Gene

GW
08-24-2007, 7:54 PM
With all due respect
Hasn't it already been 18 months since they were illegally confiscated?

hoffmang
08-24-2007, 8:18 PM
GW,

I became actively involved in resolving this in April 2007. It takes a little bit of time to professionally box someone in.

Assuming is the same mistake the DOJ is making here. And generally "all due respect" is really none so note that I know how to read.

My point above was it will be resolved before 18 more months.

-Gene

Fjold
08-24-2007, 9:09 PM
4/27/2007-"Hang tight all. Things should get interesting over the next 60 to 90 days." -Gene

6/04/2007-"Wait 30-35 days please." -Gene

6/09/2007 -"Two weeks.(Actually probably three...)" -Gene

7/10/2007-"....I expect more news before the end of the month." -Gene

7/18/2007-"I'll have more news in 3 weeks, but I am making progress." -Gene

8/23/2007-"Just a little longer GW. I'm actively working on this and will have shareable news in the next 30 days or less."-Gene

hoffmang
08-24-2007, 9:25 PM
Frank,

How much have you spent fighting this? Care to donate to my legal fees? Would you prefer I just said nothing and let everyone here just whine into the vacuum of space and time? I can quite happily not give anyone any updates until its over and that seems to be what you want.

90 days was 7/27. Its now 8/24.

-Gene

Fjold
08-24-2007, 10:08 PM
Gene,

Why not stop promising everybody involved all these updates and results? You haven't followed up with even an informational update on one of the post of yours that I've quoted.

Promising updates, more information and results in two weeks, three weeks, by the end of the month and not saying anything when the dates come up, IMHO is irresponsible.

"90 days was 7/27. Its now 8/24." True, but even today you haven't given any information or update, just another promise saying that something will happen later.

How about:

6/04/2007-"Wait 30-35 days please." -Gene Where's the update for July 4th?

6/09/2007 -"Two weeks.(Actually probably three...)" -Gene Did I miss the update for this on June 30th?

7/10/2007-"....I expect more news before the end of the month." -Gene What news came out on July 31st?

7/18/2007-"I'll have more news in 3 weeks, but I am making progress." -Gene Where's the news for Aug 8th?

8/23/2007-"Just a little longer GW. I'm actively working on this and will have shareable news in the next 30 days or less."-Gene Here's the latest promise for news

How can anyone take any more of these statements seriously?

It's not that everyone expects you to get all these lowers released by any specific date, if at all. What people do expect is that if you tell them that you will have news or an update on a certain date that you would at least say something about it at that time.

If you cannot meet your self imposed datelines two, three or four times in a row don't you think that you should stop making those promises?

I don't own a lower in the group buy but a family member of mine does, I feel partly responsible for all the extra money and time he has spent because I'm the one who informed him about OLL situation and Calguns and therefore the Milpitas group buy.


"Would you prefer I just said nothing and let everyone here just whine into the vacuum of space and time? I can quite happily not give anyone any updates until its over and that seems to be what you want."

Why not just say that you are working on it and if there is news or information that comes up that you will promptly share it? If someone posts again "What's up with the Milpita's Group buy? That answer will work everytime.

artherd
08-25-2007, 10:38 PM
As anyone who's involved, actually involved, actively, in this knows; these things take time, and the schegule is in large part set by DOJ, not by us.

As we know DOJ reads these forums, so posting much more than cursory info here does a disservice.

Attacking those on here who are advocating on your behalf is about the stupidest behavior I can imagine. You should be contacting Gene and helping him with legal fees and strategy.

What have YOU done?

CJ5&G23
08-26-2007, 1:06 AM
Don't be a victim of "divide and conquer". Gene is not the enemy and I believe he is doing all that can be done from his part. Everyone in the group buy should appreciate his efforts. I am not in the Milpitas group buy, but have been watching this since day 1.

hoffmang
08-26-2007, 9:08 AM
Frank,

You answered my question above. You'd rather I said nothing. I suggest you put me on ignore as others would prefer to hear the small amount of info I can share.

Can you name a time in the past where I haven't posted something substantive at the end of a process like this?

You do realize I was not an original participant in the Milpitas group buy but stepped in to stop the whining, right?

Also, you should talk to your family member.

-Gene

Fjold
08-26-2007, 9:14 AM
What have YOU done?

I could ask you the same question? I imagine that you are very active in working on a number of things but it doesn't seem like you feel that it's necessary to post about what you do about them on a weekly basis or to post cryptic messages about how much you are 'in the know', so much more than the common peon.

One of the points of my post is to highlight that many of us don't need public adulation to do things, we just do it. Many people are doing things like working with the NRA or other organizations but they don't come on the boards weekly and tell everyone "We are working on secret things that only we are trusted with but we'll fill you in on it next month" and then not doing so.

Common sense says that if you are working on something so sensitive that public disclosure would hurt your chances of achieving your goals then you stop talking about it and you sure don't promise information about it, unless you're 100% sure that can follow through on it.

If you are wrong and unable to give out information that you told everyone you would, you need to address that. Even a statement like "we thought that we would be able to give you some information this week but negotiations didn't occur to our anticipated timetable so we can't provide an update at this time". You don't ignore it and then make more promises that you don't know that you can fulfill.

Everything that I do, (admittedly much of it is just donating money, not real work) I just do, no one but me has to know about it. I don't need to be a member of the cabal of secret knowledge and I sure don't need to tell everyone on a weekly basis that I am.

I am not attacking, I am pointing out at least some people are getting tired of the these "I'm a secret agent, posts"

If "Attacking those on here who are advocating on your behalf is about the stupidest behavior I can imagine." then you must have a very limited imagination.

There is always disagreement with self appointed and even legimately appointed advocates. Throughout history disagreement is what has driven change. The US Constitution was written but the disagreement with what was written and the public debate resulted in the amendments to it that acknowledged our inherent rights to bear arms. Where would we be right now if people didn't stand up and say "I disagree and want something different"?

Look at all the disagreement with the policies and practices of the NRA, CRPA, etc. Many of the goals and beliefs of these groups are supported by huge numbers of people but we can and should disagree with some of the individual actions of the advocates and people in charge of them when their methodology is something that we cannot support. It keeps people honest, it insures that one persons opinions and ideas are not automatically drafted as correct, it insures that the things that are done are overseen by more people thereby fostering debate and discussion to make sure that organization focuses resources and develops goals that are important to the group.

I don't pretend to know all the answers but I can't say that about everyone else on these boards.

hoffmang
08-26-2007, 9:39 AM
Frank,

Have you talked to your family member?

Also, my work on this does not stop you from doing anything else to further assuage your personal feelings of guilt. However, I will warn you that anyone serious about solving this needs to dedicate about $25K for up to a couple of years.

And the short answer to why updates didn't happen publicly is that BoF has flouted the law at least twice during my work. Once trivially, and once not so trivially. I'm not posting public details to give them room to do the right thing. If they don't do the right thing they will have to explain it to a judge soon and everyone on CGN can compare my comments you take exception to to the paper trail. However, then we'll be back to schedules that jump around like BWO's case and Parker/Heller.

-Gene

Fjold
08-26-2007, 10:14 AM
Frank,

You answered my question above. You'd rather I said nothing. I suggest you put me on ignore as others would prefer to hear the small amount of info I can share.

Can you name a time in the past where I haven't posted something substantive at the end of a process like this?

You do realize I was not an original participant in the Milpitas group buy but stepped in to stop the whining, right?

Also, you should talk to your family member.

-Gene


Gene, you read into it what you wanted, not what I wrote. If you were giving the information out that you had promised or you just told everyone that work is progressing and you will give out information as it becomes available for public knowledge, I wouldn't have been compelled to say anything. All you've done in the posts that I've quoted are give promises of information and updates without delivering them.

Again, all I'm suggesting is to stop promising to give out information and then not doing it.

I cannot name a time when you have failed to post something substantive at the end of "a process like this" because I know of no other situation that compares significantly to this, and this is the middle of the process not the end and eveything that you are posting is insubstantive.

If you had posted something substantive at the "end of the process" to get the group buy receivers released all you would have heard from me are congratulations and admiration.

I liken your posts of promises of information to the cable company telling me that they will be here Tuesday between 1 and 4 PM and then not showing up. Then telling me a week later that they will be here between 8 AM and noon and again not showing up. Then repeating that three or four times with no explanation of why they couldn't make it at the time promised. The quality of their work may be fantastic and the resullts may exceed my wildest expectations but the frustration with their service may tarnish my opinion of them regardless.

As far as not being a member of the Milpitas buy; I do know that you are not an original member of the Milpitas group buy but have purchased a receiver or receivers from the original owner(s).

Many self appointed advocates are driven by pure motives and many are driven by self indulgent motives. The nature of your posts continuously telling us about how secret things are and that only you can be trusted with that knowledge gives pause to question your motivation.

I have talked with my family member and he may not agree with all that I'm saying but he understands what I am talking about. He initiated contact with Ben about the actions he was taking on his own and that led to contact with you and the only updates that he has received were within the last couple of days. (coincidently after this disagreement became public) He also did not give me any information on the details of what is occuring because he knows that he shouldn't make a public statement about private information or promise anything if he is not sure that he can keep those promises.
__________________

Fjold
08-26-2007, 10:21 AM
Frank,

Have you talked to your family member?

Also, my work on this does not stop you from doing anything else to further assuage your personal feelings of guilt. However, I will warn you that anyone serious about solving this needs to dedicate about $25K for up to a couple of years.

And the short answer to why updates didn't happen publicly is that BoF has flouted the law at least twice during my work. Once trivially, and once not so trivially. I'm not posting public details to give them room to do the right thing. If they don't do the right thing they will have to explain it to a judge soon and everyone on CGN can compare my comments you take exception to to the paper trail. However, then we'll be back to schedules that jump around like BWO's case and Parker/Heller.

-Gene


Gene, the nature of the disagreement is not what information is given out. I am not naive and realize that legal issues cannot be discussed in an open forum and to tell you the truth what you just posted above is more information than I would consider prudent to put up publically.

The issue is: The continuous promises to give out information and then not doing so.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer.


Personally I feel that you are probably doing the yeoman's share of the work and shouldering the huge majority of the financial burden. But your constant posting of empty promises detracts from the work that you are doing.

hoffmang
08-26-2007, 10:22 AM
Many self appointed advocates are driven by pure motives and many are driven by self indulgent motives. The nature of your posts continuously telling us about how secret things are and that only you can be trusted with that knowledge gives pause to question your motivation.


Frank,

Have you ever thought about simply asking me privately if you didn't like my public responses? Your brother did and he got a substantive update.

I don't appreciate you questioning my motivations. I'm already well known and in many ways my firearms advocacy can be considered career limiting so why are you implying that I'm a fame seeker?. My responses were generally in response to someone asking a general question - which your timeline leaves those contexts out. I'm sorry you don't like my choice of words - I'm not pleased in hindsight either, but I didn't expect DOJ to be so flagrantly bad - however I have planned for that. You'll note that Chuck Michel is similarly circumspect about BWO's case. Ever thought that those two things may be strategically directly related?

Now that you've impugned the character of the person actively working to get these released, do you have any other brilliant thoughts? You do realize you are being selfish, right? Your problem with my work is how I communicate it to you.

-Gene

Kestryll
08-26-2007, 10:32 AM
Is there a reason this thread has gone from sharing info about this issue to attacking the people working on it?

Let's rephrase that, is there a good coherent reason for this change?

Yes, it's a long and annoying process and for those who have been dealing with this from the beginning it certainly have to be wearing.
But to think that ANY of this is because of inaction or obfuscation by the members here is folly.

We all know, from countless other incidents and evidence, who the masters of 'Delay, Disinform and Divide' are and it's not the people here.

A simple question, just because they have responded here we'll pick them, does anyone really believe that Gene and/or Ben have done nothing on this or have decided to backburner it because it's costly or inconvenient?


ETA: I do understand your question Frank, it is difficult at times to not know what we'd like to know and to have to go along trusting in others. Things like this, BWO and LT's cases and more have left many of us to have to just supportthem and be patient with little or no info. It sucks honestly because I am not a patient person, I want to know and I want to know NOW!!
However that is the nature of the 'game' we are playing so I have to accept it and move forward.

I too have checked back after a 'deadline' had passed to see what is new and been curious.
I tend to equate it to BWO's case, twice now we have been told the prelim would be on 'XX' date only to be delayed to a later date. We know about that because it is a matter of public record. What Gene and Ben are doing is not but is subject to the same delays.

I think Ben and gene are in a bit of a rough spot with this, in the beginning as I recall questions were answered as you are requesting, no time frames given just 'We're still working on it'. This lead over time to questions of whether anything was being done or not and pushes for 'Just give us an idea of how long'.
Now that they are trying to pass on their best thoughts on time frames when asked they are held accountable for the delays of the DOJ.
I suspect if Gene went back to not answering the 'How long?' post and just occasionally said, 'We're still working on it.' we'd be back to the questions of 'Well are you really doing anything?' again.

It's a hard place to be and I'm pretty sure that at some level Gene shares your frustration at not being able to give a solid date because of the whims and antics of the DOJ.


This not just to Frank but to all of us, let's not let this become a point of division. If that happens then even if they give the lowers back the DOJ still wins.
Our unity is the strength that has allowed us to do what we've done so far, don't let them take that with just simple delaying tactics.

Fjold
08-26-2007, 10:51 AM
Chuck Michel is cimcumspect and doesn't promise informational updates and then not follow through on them. I agree that his example of how he works would be good way to do it.

Your responses that I quoted were promises of information that you have not followed through on or even acknowledged and that is the whole substance of what I have posted.

Again, you have focused on one part of what you want to read without acknowledging the underlying disagreement. My mentioning your motivation is entirely based on what you have posted and it may be questionable for me to do so but after all the public promises that you have not followed through on it's not I that has impugned your character.


Again, my entire disagreement is based your constant promises of more information and then not following through on it. I feel that if you cannot give out information stop telling everyone that you are going to do so.

hoffmang
08-26-2007, 10:57 AM
You know Frank, you'd make an excellent assistant at BoF. Quote the things I say that support your (somewhat cranky) position and ignore the things I say that go against your pet thesis. An example is my post on 7/23:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=686969&postcount=53

Between 6/30 and 7/10 I posted that something very beneficial had happened that I couldn't fully disclose. That there takes a bit more time for the next step should be no surprise.

Candor is necessary when one believes that folks will make the right decision. If the right decision isn't made, the next steps will be matters of public record not unlike the OAL Petition. This will be resolved during 2007 and probably much sooner.

At this point you're just whining.

-Gene

Fjold
08-26-2007, 10:59 AM
Is there a reason this thread has gone from sharing info about this issue to attacking the people working on it?




The point is;

There have been promises to share information, no information is shared.

Promises are made to share information again and no information is shared.

Promises are made to share information again and no information is shared.

Promises are made to share information again and no information is shared.

Promises are made to share information again and no information is shared.


Information does not have to be shared with everyone, just stop promising to do so and then not doing it.

Kestryll
08-26-2007, 11:07 AM
The point is;

There have been promises to share information, no information is shared.
Promises are made to share information again and no information is shared.
Promises are made to share information again and no information is shared.
Promises are made to share information again and no information is shared.
Information does not have to be shared with everyone, just stop promising to do so and then not doing it.

Since it was an editted in addition to my previous post I'll copy it here.
I do understand where you are coming from but i wanted to point out that what you are suggesting has been trid and had it's own set of problems.

I think Ben and gene are in a bit of a rough spot with this, in the beginning as I recall questions were answered as you are requesting, no time frames given just 'We're still working on it'. This lead over time to questions of whether anything was being done or not and pushes for 'Just give us an idea of how long'.
Now that they are trying to pass on their best thoughts on time frames when asked they are held accountable for the delays of the DOJ.
I suspect if Gene went back to not answering the 'How long?' post and just occasionally said, 'We're still working on it.' we'd be back to the questions of 'Well are you really doing anything?' again.

It's a hard place to be and I'm pretty sure that at some level Gene shares your frustration at not being able to give a solid date because of the whims and antics of the DOJ.



Now, to address this a bit more off topic but on point of what is going on here.

Both of you are evidently upset about this and what is going back and forth here is not gong to be helpful to anyone.

A simple suggestion, take several moments away from this thread.

Time away to do and think about other things will prevent this from snowballing in to more than it should be.
You both know that the other is on the same side as you but frustration and annoyance can lead to saying/typing things that have lasting detrimental effect.

Let it lie for a bit and then come back to it at a later time, less damage will be done and the concerns and issues will still be here to be addressed calmly.

hoffmang
08-26-2007, 11:08 AM
The point is;

There have been promises to share information, no information is shared.

Promises are made to share information again and no information is shared.


Except when I do share information in quite a few of the posts above.

This is droll coming from someone that has actually seen the detail. I already linked to a specific post where I'm sharing some of that information - or at least trying to give more information than nothing. I'm not interested in spending a lot of time defending myself from someone who is supposed to be on the same side.

I expect there are some other people who would prefer to hear something over nothing. If they don't get an update I'm going to start posting that they should PM you with why I don't say anything about it.

Why are you feeling so guilty about getting your brother into this?

-Gene

1911_sfca
08-26-2007, 11:28 AM
Gene,

Please just ignore the negative comments in this thread. What you are doing is very important and we appreciate it.

artherd
08-26-2007, 11:57 AM
Fjold, when you step up and cut a check for $5k towards the expenses being incurred by various parties(a drop in the bucket by the way), then you will have earned the right to complain.

Untill then, you are complaining about 'bad service' from a 'cable company' to which you do not subscribe.

I'm not saying 'trust us, we're great'. I am saying; *get involved* man!

I think Gene and I are not nearly so surprised as to the timoltuos nature of this sort of thing, in large part because we are both (sucessful) veterans of prior legal battles. The very first thing to go out the window is often any kind of timeleness.

At the end of the day, the very sad thing here is that in order to simply obey existing law a hostile government agency is monitoring and obstrifucating to such a degree that perfectly law abiding people must operate largely in secret to effect their goal of acquiring legal goods via legal means. Sad, really.

The bottom line guys, we get nothing by sitting behind our computers and bickering from afar. Infact, the financial hardship your friend and I have incurred, and a division of the people dedicated to legally purchasing OLLs, is exactly the goals DOJ envisioned when they unlawfully siezed our property.

Chuck Michel is cimcumspect and doesn't promise informational updates and then not follow through on them. I agree that his example of how he works would be good way to do it.

Your responses that I quoted were promises of information that you have not followed through on or even acknowledged and that is the whole substance of what I have posted.

Again, you have focused on one part of what you want to read without acknowledging the underlying disagreement. My mentioning your motivation is entirely based on what you have posted and it may be questionable for me to do so but after all the public promises that you have not followed through on it's not I that has impugned your character.


Again, my entire disagreement is based your constant promises of more information and then not following through on it. I feel that if you cannot give out information stop telling everyone that you are going to do so.

artherd
08-26-2007, 12:03 PM
I could ask you the same question? I imagine that you are very active in working on a number of things but it doesn't seem like you feel that it's necessary to post about what you do about them on a weekly basis or to post cryptic messages about how much you are 'in the know', so much more than the common peon.

Quite a few fronts, yes. I post what I can when I can, which unfortunately isn't much untill it has already happened. Some things I will probally never be at liberty to disclose. Not to sound like a fancy operative with a clearance, this is just the nature of intellectual property and things you would rather your competition not know.

Think for instance of my first OLL purchase way back when; I said nothing beyond some idle discussion for 6+ months (or over 2 years depending on how you look at it.)

I couldn't say anything w/o undermining the effort in progress, once it was finished I was able to publicize the entire thing.

We're facing a similar situation here, except with a public issue and a hunger for updates.

Floyd, I'd encourage you to get involved. Anyone with standing to file can sue.


Lastly, anyone questioning Mr Hoffman's credibility may as well question my own. I won't give such an absurd and off-base notion any more credence by discussing it furthur.

Anthonysmanifesto
08-26-2007, 1:33 PM
Gene is a self -starting , self funding pro-gun animal who has a high batting average for us in California.

we should be asking what we can do for Gene, not what Gene can do for us.

(Disclosure) I am not one of the victims of this particular situation, but I think my statement above applies universally.

TacFan
08-26-2007, 1:33 PM
Gene,

Please just ignore the negative comments in this thread. What you are doing is very important and we appreciate it.


I agree. Gene has been a great asset to Calguns. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Fjold seems to be the guy who loves to argue and make a scene out of things. I do not know his motivation behind it ... only he can answer it.

Fjold
08-26-2007, 2:29 PM
I have no desire to continue a disagreement that has devolved from the original reason to questions of personality. I haven't questioned Mr Hoffman's ability to get things done or the good that he does. I questioned his way of communicating them.

As far as me ponying up any amount of money in order to complain about something. I would be willing to bet that 90% of the posters on here contribute nothing to any causes brought up on these board. The small minority of people who do contribute something pick what they contribute to as to what is the most important to them.

I chose a couple of issues (like BWO's case) and made contributions to them. I contribute to such organizations as the NRA and it's ILA on the national and state levels, I'm a life member of the NRA and have given enough money to easily be a Patron or Benefactor member but I don't need that recognition.

Just because someone doesn't post all their accomplishments on these boards don't assume that they don't contribute. I write letters for just about every legislative fight we get into at the local, State and National levels. I work on converting the undecided, I take non-shooters shooting. I work with women on self sufficiency and self protection issues. I worked with other FFL's to explained the situation about OLL's and by myself convinced one other FFL in Bakersfield to sell them back in 2006.
I worked with Wes and the distributors of Mateba firearms to change their policy of not shipping Mateba's to California and they did so. When I got done with that I merely posted the response from the distributor and acknowledged Wes' contributions to that cause. So if an LEO buys a Mateba and you wind up with it later, you now know how it got here.

I acknowledged that Gene has done some serious work for the good of all California gun owners on this issue. We just disagree on this one point of how he is communicating it.

In my total of 2,600+ posts there might be a dozen strings with me disagreeing with someone and most of those are just like Gene's where it is correcting something that someone is blatantly wrong like bad advice on what is legal or illegal. The other few are where I point out the hypocrisy or blatant illogic of someone else's argument, those I enjoy.

WokMaster1
08-26-2007, 6:45 PM
May I just suggest that we all just go take a walk or a breather for now. We need to focus on what needs to be done.

FJold, maybe you & Gene can PM each other,...I don't have the answer. I'm in the same darkness as you are. I have no direct involvement in this case but am quite eager to do what I can when the bugle sounds.

Yes, I understand the frustration. I am in the restaurant business, instant satisfaction is my thing. But you know how it is dealing with the bureaucratic process & the secrecy in tactics & info. I am sure Gene is not trying to string anyone along. Sometimes, things/info that were agreed on prior that can be release to the general public can become "Top Secret" just like that.

Look, make a long story short, both you & Gene are people that I respect & look up to for advice & ideas. Let's not lose focus here. It's to make AM's panties just a tad tighter than it is already.:D

Boomer1961
09-01-2007, 8:25 PM
I wonder if there will ever be any more real news or updates about the infamous Milipitas lowers on this thread anymore?:confused:

The world wonders!:eek:

I wonder!:rolleyes:

All the Calgunners wonder!:cool:

Lets get back on track and resist responding to an alleged disrepectful posts we take personally.

hoffmang
09-02-2007, 12:41 AM
There will be updates but Fjold has succeeded in making sure that I will not give hints.

-Gene

artherd
09-05-2007, 12:08 AM
I wonder if there will ever be any more real news or updates about the infamous Milipitas lowers on this thread anymore?

Yes, but suffice to say, they will occur well after the fact.

Stormfeather
09-06-2007, 5:43 AM
. . . . . . are we still at TWO WEEKS? . . . . . . . . . :eek:

:rolleyes:

:jump:

:party:


AWWW CMON GUYS, WHERES YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR?

GW
09-20-2007, 4:47 PM
Any news on this front?

hoffmang
09-20-2007, 4:56 PM
There is news. We don't know how long it will take for that news to be shared.

-Gene

wilit
09-20-2007, 5:40 PM
There's news that there's new news! What great news!!! :D

I sure hope you poor guys get your lowers soon. I know there's been a lot of effort and $$$ dropped on this fiasco.

artherd
09-21-2007, 1:55 AM
. . . . . . are we still at TWO WEEKS? . . . . . . . . . :eek:

:rolleyes:

:jump:

:party:


AWWW CMON GUYS, WHERES YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR?

Meebe three weeks :D

Big news today, but can't go blathering it all about, hopefully able to share it very soon.

artherd
09-21-2007, 2:07 AM
There's news that there's new news! What great news!!! :D

I sure hope you poor guys get your lowers soon. I know there's been a lot of effort and $$$ dropped on this fiasco.
The world is eventually going to see the results of a willingness to drop 100x the value of stolen property in effort to reclaim it. :cool2:

wilit
09-21-2007, 5:41 PM
The world is eventually going to see the results of a willingness to drop 100x the value of stolen property in effort to reclaim it. :cool2:

Let me be the first to offer to bring soda to the first Calguns Shoot-n-que featuring the infamous "Milpitas Lowers."

bwiese
09-24-2007, 12:26 PM
Let me be the first to offer to bring soda to the first Calguns Shoot-n-que featuring the infamous "Milpitas Lowers."

Perhaps an alternate venue is warranted so the beverages can be, um, "stronger" :)

Boomer1961
09-24-2007, 7:14 PM
Perhaps an alternate venue is warranted so the beverages can be, um, "stronger" :)

I have some news to, it is a secret, but news. Could be about Milpitas lowers, then again maybe about what I am thinking on cooking for dinner. It is news. I wish I could tell you what it is. But if I did that it would not be news, it would be olds.

TAKE CARE EVERYONE!

......and may god lead the infidels to recognize the errors of their ways and return this stolen property.:D

.....oh, someone reported on the other board that they saw the milipitas lowers getting picked up, it was bigfoot. He snapped up all the Milpitas lowers then run into a UFO where he proceeded to head to Halley's comet to dump them off because Iggy told him that if he did not he would be charged with unlawful possession of an assault weapon because he has more the ability to scratch you with more than 10 claws at once (counting toes) and did not register them.

artherd
09-24-2007, 10:34 PM
Perhaps an alternate venue is warranted so the beverages can be, um, "stronger" :)

:D:cool2:

jdberger
09-28-2007, 2:09 AM
Perhaps an alternate venue is warranted so the beverages can be, um, "stronger" :)
Yes!

That camel is managing to squeeze itself under that tent a little at a time.

Patience, dedication, hard work, patience...

Thanks to Ben and Gene and Bill and the rest of you guys that make this happen....:D

GW
10-14-2007, 2:32 AM
So...
Anything breaking for us on this front?

hoffmang
10-14-2007, 11:05 AM
This will be resolved soon and I can't speculate on the exact timing.

-Gene

DHiggmo
10-15-2007, 7:58 PM
I think It will be in two weeks;)

Smokeybehr
10-16-2007, 8:26 AM
This will be resolved soon and I can't speculate on the exact timing.

-Gene

Two Weeks? :D

GW
10-17-2007, 12:33 AM
This will be resolved soon and I can't speculate on the exact timing.

-Gene
Aww just this once...

Boarding-Team-Leader
10-17-2007, 8:43 AM
You guys are ruthless...
BTL

Smokeybehr
10-17-2007, 10:43 PM
You guys are ruthless...
BTL

Yeah, but it's all good fun.:D We heard "two weeks" out of DOJ/BOF in '05 so many times that it is now the inside joke for the regular CGN crew.

Scarecrow Repair
10-18-2007, 9:53 AM
Yeah, but it's all good fun.:D We heard "two weeks" out of DOJ/BOF in '05 so many times that it is now the inside joke for the regular CGN crew.

Yeh, but if we keep on using it, it will become too weak.

Boarding-Team-Leader
10-18-2007, 10:46 AM
Yeh, but if we keep on using it, it will become too weak.
Yeah, it will only be worth 14 days....
BTL

artherd
10-18-2007, 10:48 AM
I should have some news in about 336 hours ;)

Scarecrow Repair
10-18-2007, 11:21 AM
I am hanging on by the minute for the next step ...

Sgt Raven
10-18-2007, 11:40 AM
I should have some news in about 336 hours ;)


I think it'll be about 20,160 minutes. ;)

Boarding-Team-Leader
10-18-2007, 12:05 PM
Or 1209600 seconds
BTL

Scarecrow Repair
10-18-2007, 8:00 PM
Thanks, that was a long moment ...

SDJim
10-18-2007, 11:32 PM
A fortnight possibly

Boomer1961
10-19-2007, 9:57 PM
I heard that Iggy sold the Milpitas lowers to the local Coca Cola facotry so if you want your milpitas lower back you will have to buy some six packs of coca-cola and remelt the cans back into the form of a lower receiver.:43:

Bad Iggy,.....Bad Bad Bad Iggy, .....Bad Bad Iggy........don't you ever pee on the carpet again or off to the rendering plant you go!.....Bad Bad Bad Iggy....

GW
10-22-2007, 8:48 PM
Sooo...
If you guys are squeezing these idiots for our receivers, is there any chance of getting redros and LEGR fees back as well?
Hold 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the *****

hoffmang
10-22-2007, 9:06 PM
Ask that question again when we can talk a little more in depth about things - like while we're DROSing...

-Gene

GW
10-23-2007, 11:27 PM
This may be a dumb question, but it its an honest one.
As we have already DROS'ed once (or in my case twice) Why would we need to DROS yet again?

Wulf
10-24-2007, 6:47 AM
This may be a dumb question, but it its an honest one.
As we have already DROS'ed once (or in my case twice) Why would we need to DROS yet again?

To make sure you haven't become a nut or a criminal since the last DROS was completed. Oh, and so they can take some more of your money....because the can....and because being government, that's what they do.

stator
10-29-2007, 5:31 PM
This may be a dumb question, but it its an honest one.
As we have already DROS'ed once (or in my case twice) Why would we need to DROS yet again?

Because federal requirement of the 4473. The DOJ firearms division will come back and say that you cannot execute the completion of the 4473 because you are past 30 days on the DROS; and that they cannot change federal law.

In other words, they will hide behind Uncle Sam's skirt although it is really CA in the first place.

hoffmang
10-29-2007, 9:23 PM
This is pretty clearly an ATF issue. ATF says a NICS is only valid for 30 days and that both makes sense and isn't that strange of a ruling.

It's only California's illegal behavior that caused a problem here.

-Gene

atek3
11-04-2007, 12:13 AM
stupid question, but I moved to New Hampshire, any way i can get my reciever without stepping foot in the PRK again?

atek3

artherd
11-04-2007, 2:31 AM
The State of CA is directly culpable for the delay that requires us to re-DROS. Unfortunately, CA lacks authority to waive a federal law, so we will almost certinly have to re-DROS.

stupid question, but I moved to New Hampshire, any way i can get my reciever without stepping foot in the PRK again?

atek3

Quite probally, yes; with the usual out-of-state FFL dance.

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 12:47 PM
jeeez, I've been wathing this thread for like forever.........

If there ever was the need for the equivilant of a habeus corpus for property....this....this situation calls for it.

I feel for all you guys. Hang in there. I hope/pray you will all prevail...even if it is simply a game of waiting them out.

stator
11-09-2007, 6:18 AM
November check-in...

In two weeks - no - years! That's it. :)

Jarhead4
11-10-2007, 12:05 AM
You could look at it this way, the DOJ has about 15 months to either put up or shut up. If they donít bring charges by then they have to release the receivers. And I seriously doubt they are going to bring charges. If they had a case they would have donít it already.

bwiese
11-10-2007, 12:07 AM
You could look at it this way, the DOJ has about 15 months to either put up or shut up. If they donít bring charges by then they have to release the receivers.

Gene's coming back and I think things will get re-stirred. Yes, the DOJ has gone past the date to file. So the receivers are essentially 'stolen' now.

Wulf
11-10-2007, 8:13 AM
Has this issue been brought directly to the new AG yet?

Seems like at this point its ripe for a "none of the slags left over from the last AG have done the right thing here, we'd prefer not to start pissing on your shoes, so why dont you do the right thing" approach.

Knauga
11-11-2007, 8:30 AM
Gene's coming back and I think things will get re-stirred. Yes, the DOJ has gone past the date to file. So the receivers are essentially 'stolen' now.

Who do you call when the DOJ has stolen your property? Is this going to be 10 years of civil court battles? Can you call the BATFe and file a report of massive firearms theft?

Yes, tongue in cheek, but seriously how does somebody proceed with that?

artherd
11-15-2007, 12:35 AM
November check-in...

In two weeks - no - years! That's it. :)

Massive developments lately, can't really talk about any of it, but it is posative.

I can offer this: The lowers still very much exist and miss you terribly!

Mssr. Elegantť
11-15-2007, 12:41 AM
...The lowers still very much exist and miss you terribly!

Is there an address where we can send care packages to the lowers? They could probably use reading material and toiletries. Maybe hard candies and beef jerky.

You guys should send Christmas cards to your lowers this year, c/o Cal DOJBOF.

Dear Fulton FAR-15 serial no. 203465,

I hope this letter finds you in good cheer. We've spoken to your lawyer again and he feels that you might be let out before Christmas. Little Timmy is doing well in his first year at school...

Knauga
11-15-2007, 6:15 AM
Is there an address where we can send care packages to the lowers? They could probably use reading material and toiletries. Maybe hard candies and beef jerky.

You guys should send Christmas cards to your lowers this year, c/o Cal DOJBOF.

Dear Fulton FAR-15 serial no. 203465,

I hope this letter finds you in good cheer. We've spoken to your lawyer again and he feels that you might be let out before Christmas. Little Timmy is doing well in his first year at school...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :rofl2:

artherd
11-16-2007, 1:34 AM
Send cigarettes, I hear they're like money in there!

Boomer1961
11-17-2007, 11:37 PM
The Viet Cong, I mean DOJ do have MIA off list lowers, I swear they do.

......why do you no believe me.....

......I swear it was not because of the Chuck Norris movie I watched last night that I believe in the MIA's being held in VietCong Cong prisons in the basements of Sacramento do truly exist....I swear my Uncle Tony knows this dude whose brother has this best friend that was in the army that had a buddy who overheard in the restroom while pissing this captain talk about the Colonel Chick he nailed the night before scream "Milpitas Lowers, they are int he basement" as she orgasimed.....so yes I know the Miplitas lowers exist!


.......if only someone would finance a rescue mission. We could higher a UH-1 Huey helicopter, two attractive daughters of George Bush as guides (one of who takes a bullet for us from the dreaded IGGY and dies early on in the rescue mission). We could higher former Vietnam, ....uh.....hum.....I mean Iraq war vets. Or better yet unemployed blackwater mercenaries who just got laid off for lighting up Baghdad after a hard night of drinking and whore hopping and saw insurgents everywhere with that hung over blurry vision.

The rescue mission could be financed by taking a script to Hollywood and selling it as a reality show rescue mission, just like cops, big brother, and Baghdad war diaries.

In the end in the last chapter we can have the scripted duel of the evil IGGY versus the other Bush Twin daughter that lived and who kills the dreaded IGGY by drinking and taking Vicodin and driving and .....oops......a pot hole in the road.....no that pot hole was IGGY...

.......YAY.....the world celebrates as another evil villain is killed by the forces of good.......

.........and as an added benefit the infamous Milpitas lowers, that half the population in Americas was not born before they were seized and imprisoned.....and three-quarters of Americans do not believe really exist and consider it Internet legend......get released.

.......and each off list lower writes its own book. Movies are made of the story and saga. Several TV shows are made including collaborations with Heroes, Jericho, Star Trek, and My Name is Earl. Before the year is out there is the "MILPITAS OFF LIST LOWERS" cable TV station with nothing but movies and TV shows and several sitcom spin-offs.

Just think how many jobs and how much money was pumped into the economy thanks to the Milpitas lowers. Ol' Georgy Dubya the Bushy II personally thanked the off list lowers for turning the economy around and many political insiders are citing it as the best thing ever for the Republicans and there 2008 run for the white house with the recession ending, and victory in Iraq directly attributed to the increase in firepower of the US ARMY with Milpitas lowers being released and used in Iraq against Al Qaeda.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!
:D

Choptop
11-29-2007, 12:25 PM
any update?

artherd
12-06-2007, 12:18 PM
Big update yesterday. Cannot release any details or speculative information however (scroll up for why :rolleyes: :)

Jarhead4
12-07-2007, 5:46 PM
Big update yesterday. Cannot release any details or speculative information however (scroll up for why :rolleyes: :)

You know Ben it is not nice to tease.

thmpr
12-07-2007, 5:49 PM
If this goes through and the DOJ does return the OLL to the rightful owners, this will seal the nail in the coffin of it's legality. I can't wait till this happens....:D

MPMillen
12-08-2007, 11:30 AM
This story seems relevant to this situation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/us/30pot.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7725289

Mark

artherd
12-08-2007, 1:23 PM
Even DOJ is leaving little doubt as to OLL legality at this point, they are still playing some games with full rifles (yet they continue to allow fully built rifles with MMG, BB, Prince50, MagLock, etc. to be sold at shows right infront of the Special Agents.)

That said, it will be nice to get my 2 receivers back!

AJAX22
12-09-2007, 6:43 PM
If any of you guys who have receivers that are still in the clutches of the DOJ want to sell one of your lowers when you get them back, I'd love to buy one of the infamous 'milipitas buy OLL's'

I'd love to add one to my collection.

Keep the peace.

hoffmang
12-09-2007, 7:11 PM
Ajax and all,

You can go ahead and make a sale w/o taking possession of a Milpitas lower. Since they all will have to be re-Drosed all you need is a receipt to show the FFL that the sale occurred and he'll just DROS it to the new owner. If you want a doc to use to do the sale, PM or email me.

-Gene

artherd
12-09-2007, 11:27 PM
You can buy or sell an interest in any of these lowers, as everyone will have to pay DROS fees when we get 'em back (so says the Fed).

BOTH parties doing the sale should execute a written contract, pay by check (photocopy it) and probably contact me via e-mail so I can give the OK to the FFL, he's not going to be releasing these to anyone but the rightful owners and he doesn't miss a beat.

Sgt Raven
12-09-2007, 11:43 PM
You can buy or sell an interest in any of these lowers, as everyone will have to pay DROS fees when we get 'em back (so says the Fed).

BOTH parties doing the sale should execute a written contract, pay by check (photocopy it) and probably contact me via e-mail so I can give the OK to the FFL, he's not going to be releasing these to anyone but the rightful owners and he doesn't miss a beat.

Ben, what makes of OLLs did they take. I too would like one of these for history. ;)

mauritz45
12-10-2007, 6:49 PM
i would like one of these as well. if anyone wishes to sell, please PM-cam

wilit
12-10-2007, 7:31 PM
Ben, what makes of OLLs did they take. I too would like one of these for history. ;)

I believe they were all Fultons.

I have to say, I bought mine around the time these got seized and I would lay awake at night imagining the white vans pulling up outside my house and the MIB busting down my door for the chunk of aluminum I had sitting in my underwear drawer. :eek:

HeHateMe
12-10-2007, 8:45 PM
I believe they were all Fultons.

Nope, DOJ five-finger discounted 3 of my Doublestars.

joe_sun
12-10-2007, 10:21 PM
They have my Lauer

GW
12-10-2007, 10:39 PM
Yep, they have 1 Lauer and 1 DoubleStar of mine
Heck, I'll part with one or the other

artherd
12-10-2007, 10:55 PM
There are Fultons, D*s, and Lauers at least in the mix.

FEDUPWBS
12-18-2007, 7:07 PM
I too am interested in one of these lowers pm me with what you have. If there was anyway to document the history on them that would be great.

adamsreeftank
12-18-2007, 7:31 PM
For the people offering to buy these, you should remember something. OLLs weren't going for 95 bucks like they do today. Between all of the different people that had to handle the lowers to get them from uncooperative vendors to the FFL and all of the overnight shipping charges, the costs were severely inflated. I also paid extra to get Wilson Tactical lowers that were blocked by the DOJ because they sounded too much like Wilson Combat. All told, my Lauers cost over 300 bucks each.

artherd
12-19-2007, 2:10 AM
I spent about $3grand just on letters that finally proved Wilson Tacticals were legal. Counting that; I think I have a thousand dollars each invested in my five alone. Worth it.

artherd
12-19-2007, 2:12 AM
Documenting the history on a Seized Milpitas OLL should be pretty easy, our FFL has detailed records of the SN of each one. It would be neat to one day have a registry for all 219, kind of like for collectors of cars.

adamsreeftank
12-19-2007, 5:31 AM
I spent about $3grand just on letters that finally proved Wilson Tacticals were legal. Counting that; I think I have a thousand dollars each invested in my five alone. Worth it.

I agree. I just don't want people to think those special "souvenirs" are going to come cheap.

artherd
12-19-2007, 11:19 AM
Absolutely, these were hard won by many good people.

Boarding-Team-Leader
12-19-2007, 4:15 PM
This group buy #5 Fulton FAR 15 was the first lower receiver for me. It hopefully will end up as my first weapon purchase in 2008!
I find it humorous when people complain about the "Ten day waiting period" :toetap05:
It is all about patience and persistence....
BTL

hoffmang
12-19-2007, 7:05 PM
"Watch this space" :31:

-Gene

Scarecrow Repair
12-19-2007, 9:05 PM
"Watch this space" :31:

-Gene

My knees are two weak for any more of this.

artherd
12-20-2007, 2:07 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=891777#post891777

Kestryll
12-20-2007, 9:16 AM
Looks like this thread is now a non-issue! ;)