357 SIG

[Napalm Bulldog]

I have a 357SIG. Never use it. Just sits in my safe. As does my .40SW.
Neither do anything a 9MM won't do; and YOU buy all my 9MM.

Nice try though.

You armchair commandos are horrible at trolling.

Thats why your so angry!

[ST5MF]

Thats why your so angry!

???

Again, you need to work on your trolling skills. Go back to AR15.COM where you get your education; there are some good examples of trolls over there and you may learn something on how to troll.

No one likes trolls especially bad ones.

[kemasa]

He must be your boyfriend.

This is a prime example of your inability to produce a reasonable and rational comment. For some strange reason you must resort to comments which are not appropriate and only serve to show your mental state.

A simple response could have been "I did not know that it was a win/lose situation". That would have shown a mature mentality.

Please consider leaving the playground and grow up.

[kemasa]

I gave Dr.Roberts data as well as his commentary. But that was not enough for any of the armchair commando brigade that "cling" to the idealology that 357SIG is any different than the more popular cartridges of 9MM, .40, or .45. You may think you know more than one of the most respected ballistic scientist in the world. Truth is you don't. So be it. You threw in the idoitic .50BMG comment. The brigade can continue to poision themselves with KOOL-AID all they like. It matters not. Spew the FUD that the 357SIG is some "SUPER CARTRIDGE" all you like. A fool and his money are soon departed it seems.

BTW I could care less how I look to a bunch of clowns living in some fanasty world were their guns and ammo trump all else. As if toting a 357SIG is some kind of EDGE. How misguided can people on gun forums be? Quoting gun rags as and posts on AR15.COM as scientific data. Just laughable. This whole thread is a wash with 357SIG FUD.

I know that any comments which are different than what your idol said at one point in time causes you emotional issues, I am sorry for that. You should actually check with him to see if his opinion has since change (it does happen with reasonable and rational people). The fact is that there are multiple tests which conflict to those statements, perhaps because things changed (different bullets, different loads, different firearms, etc.). To stick to one opinion at one point in time is to ignore reality.

If you bothered to think about it, you would realize that there is something different about each of the cartridges. For some reason, you don't seem to want to admit that the .357Sig can be loaded with higher pressures than a 9mm and that tests show that it has better penetration (which does not really apply to most people's needs).

I have seen other tests which show otherwise, plus things change so that a review shortly after the .357Sig came out does not mean much. The loads and bullets change as tests as done.

My comment about the .50BMG was not "idiotic", but instead point out the problem with your comment, which you can't understand. It was in direct response to your saying that all the cartridges are the same, which is false.

I never said it was a "super cartridge". Why do you keep making things up to try to defend your opinion? This is not the first time either. It is different, now whether that makes it better or not is a different aspect. You don't want to even admit that it is different.

Also, if you want to be accurate, you would not just say "9mm" and ".45", as that is not a complete identification. Perhaps you think that there is no other .45 than the .45acp.

History: 9mm Luger 1902, .45acp 1904, .357 Magnum 1935, 10mm 1983, .40 S&W 1990 and .357 Sig 1994.

Look at why the .357 Magnum was developed. The only difference between a .357 Magnum and a .38 Special is the case size, so that the higher pressure .357 Magnum could not be put into a firearm in which was not designed for the higher pressures. This little history lesson also shows that there is an improvement in performance with higher pressure loads.

Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition is quoted quite often. One example is "The .40 S&W has been adopted by various police agencies, including the California Highway Patrol, after extensive testing proved it was much superior to the 9mm caliber. Recoil is not much more than a 9mm, so the average person would be able to handle its mild recoil easily." http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p40sw.html with a source of Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition. That shows that .40S&W is not the same as a 9mm Luger and that shows that your claim that they are all the same is also false, which is obvious to someone who can think.

So, you can stick something that is over 100 years old, from the horse and buggy age, or you can take advantage of what has been learned over the last 100 years and try something new and perhaps improved.

[ST5MF]

I know that any comments which are different than what your idol said at one point in time causes you emotional issues, I am sorry for that. You should actually check with him to see if his opinion has since change (it does happen with reasonable and rational people). The fact is that there are multiple tests which conflict to those statements, perhaps because things changed (different bullets, different loads, different firearms, etc.). To stick to one opinion at one point in time is to ignore reality.

If you bothered to think about it, you would realize that there is something different about each of the cartridges. For some reason, you don't seem to want to admit that the .357Sig can be loaded with higher pressures than a 9mm and that tests show that it has better penetration (which does not really apply to most people's needs).

I have seen other tests which show otherwise, plus things change so that a review shortly after the .357Sig came out does not mean much. The loads and bullets change as tests as done.

My comment about the .50BMG was not "idiotic", but instead point out the problem with your comment, which you can't understand. It was in direct response to your saying that all the cartridges are the same, which is false.

I never said it was a "super cartridge". Why do you keep making things up to try to defend your opinion? This is not the first time either. It is different, now whether that makes it better or not is a different aspect. You don't want to even admit that it is different.

Also, if you want to be accurate, you would not just say "9mm" and ".45", as that is not a complete identification. Perhaps you think that there is no other .45 than the .45acp.

History: 9mm Luger 1902, .45acp 1904, .357 Magnum 1935, 10mm 1983, .40 S&W 1990 and .357 Sig 1994.

Look at why the .357 Magnum was developed. The only difference between a .357 Magnum and a .38 Special is the case size, so that the higher pressure .357 Magnum could not be put into a firearm in which was not designed for the higher pressures. This little history lesson also shows that there is an improvement in performance with higher pressure loads.

Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition is quoted quite often. One example is "The .40 S&W has been adopted by various police agencies, including the California Highway Patrol, after extensive testing proved it was much superior to the 9mm caliber. Recoil is not much more than a 9mm, so the average person would be able to handle its mild recoil easily." http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p40sw.html with a source of Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition. That shows that .40S&W is not the same as a 9mm Luger and that shows that your claim that they are all the same is also false, which is obvious to someone who can think.

So, you can stick something that is over 100 years old, from the horse and buggy age, or you can take advantage of what has been learned over the last 100 years and try something new and perhaps improved.

"I know that any comments which are different than what your idol said at one point in time causes you emotional issues"

Pot meet kettle.^

I actually called and spoke with Dr.Roberts. His stance is that modern 9MM, .40S&W,357SIG, and .45 Automatic Colt Pistol calibers perform about the same. The larger and heavier loads offer a slight edge in permanent wound channel and are better at penetrating auto glass...


You can peddle your 357SIG FUD all you like. It cost twice as much as 9mm, can be difficult to find, and offers no real advantage
over modern 9MM loads. Yes the 9MM actually has gotten better over the last 100 years too Mr. Horse and Buggy Guy.


I suggest you stick to peddling guns and I will stick to actually using them. I am sure you have plenty of "suckers" lined up who buy your FUD. Fortunately for you their is a plethora of KOOL-AIDaholics who probably actually think they are getting something for their money when they buy a 357SIG pistol or ammo.

Their is a sucker born every minute has never been a truer statement.

[kemasa]

If you bothered to read, you would see that while a own a .357 Sig barrel, I have never used it. So your attempt to classify me is completely incorrect.

Perhaps some comment should be made with regards to your relationship with Dr. Roberts, just like you have done to others :-).

Cost is not an aspect which is being discussed as to whether a .357 Sig is a better round. I have actually heard that right now .357 Sig is easier to find since it stays on the shelves as few people buy it, so it is false that it is difficult to find as it can be easier than other ammunition.

I am not the one who sticks like glue to old ammunition, so why in the world would you call me the "Mr. Horse and Buggy Guy". That makes no sense at all, but I guess it fits into your mentality and (lack of) logic. I am suggesting that newer designs might be better.

Please explain how 9mm Luger has gotten better over the last hundred years in a way that would make it better than newer designs that were designed to make use of the newer powders.

You don't think that a person is getting something for their money when they buy a .357 Sig pistol or ammo? Quite clearly they get a pistol or ammo, so they do actually get something. Also, at times you can get a better value for your money by buying a .357 Sig pistol, as I did, because it is cheaper and you can get a .40S&W barrel for a lower price than if you bought the same pistol in .40S&W. This means your statement makes no sense at all and is also false.

Your personal attacks show what type of person you are. Again and again you make false statements and attacks, rather than dealing with facts. I have to wonder if you really did talk to Dr. Roberts. How about getting Dr. Roberts to make a current statement with regards to the various choices, rather than just your hearsay.

I think that what applies to you is the statement about fooling people. You want to push your agenda and don't want to deal with the actual facts.

[locosway]

History: 9mm Luger 1902, .45acp 1904, .357 Magnum 1935, 10mm 1983, .40 S&W 1990 and .357 Sig 1994.

So, you can stick something that is over 100 years old, from the horse and buggy age, or you can take advantage of what has been learned over the last 100 years and try something new and perhaps improved.

So, by your accounts the .40 and .357sig offer better performance than say a 10mm or .357 magnum? I thought we were on the topic of barrier penetration, which if we are then why not show how the 10mm is superior to the .357sig?

As for the 100 year deal, physics haven't changed much since then. Sure, powders are different now, but that's about it. FBI tests show that 12" of penetration is the minimum for an effective handgun round. All of the rounds you've listed do this with ease. The .357sig may have a slight edge over 9mm, .45, and .40 in barriers, but if you want to shoot through a barrier get a 10mm or a rifle.

[kemasa]

Gary K. Roberts, D.D.S.

DDS is a dentist and that is why he is a doctor.

Gary K. Roberts
Naval Dental Center, San Francisco
Naval Station Treasure Island, BLDG 442-2
San Francisco, CA 94130-5030

Naval Dental Center???

Preliminary Evaluation of .357 SIG JHP Bullets Intended for Law Enforcement Duty
Gary K. Roberts, D.D.S.
Officer Don Lazzarini, Santa Clara Police Department

Note the word "Preliminary".

I also see that he has experience with the human body in terms of the damage that a bullet does, but what about real world shootings in which there is something which the bullet has to go through?

[kemasa]

So, by your accounts the .40 and .357sig offer better performance than say a 10mm or .357 magnum? I thought we were on the topic of barrier penetration, which if we are then why not show how the 10mm is superior to the .357sig?

As for the 100 year deal, physics haven't changed much since then. Sure, powders are different now, but that's about it. FBI tests show that 12" of penetration is the minimum for an effective handgun round. All of the rounds you've listed do this with ease. The .357sig may have a slight edge over 9mm, .45, and .40 in barriers, but if you want to shoot through a barrier get a 10mm or a rifle.

I did not say that the .40S&W or .357 Sig offer better performance over the 10mm or .357 Magnum, did I? The .40S&W is just short 10mm. If you do not need/want the extra power, then you can go with a smaller size, both in the ammunition, as well as the firearm itself. Clearly this means that the 10mm offers more options than a .40S&W. As I understand it, the .357Sig tries to emulate the .357 Magnum in a semi-auto pistol. Clearly, there are issues with a semi-auto pistol which creates limits, such as the need to feed the round, so the bullet has to be shaped to allow for reliable feeding. This could bring up the issue of a revolver being able to have better ammunition than a semi-auto pistol.

Since the .357Sig has the same bullet available as a 9mm, it would tend to indicate that if you think that the 10mm can be better than the .40S&W, then you also should think that the .357Sig can be better than the 9mm Luger.

At least you admit that the .357Sig might have a slight edge in barriers, which some others refuse to admit that there is anything in which it might be better in.

Part of the discussion is whether the .357Sig is better (in any way) to the 9mm Luger. I don't think that anyone here has been saying that it is the best round out there (contrary to what some people are claiming that others are saying).

While physics has not changed much, there is more understanding with regards to the design and effectiveness. High speed cameras can assist in determining what is actually going on. These additional tools can help design better ammunition. Too much velocity can have negative aspects, such as not allowing a hollowpoint to open up and instead just going clear through the person you are trying to stop.

[locosway]

The .357sig does do better in barrier penetration than a 9mm. Also, if you read some law enforcement encounters with vehicles you'll note that a 9mm has a hard time penetrating vehicle doors. Now, this probably isn't a +p or +p+ load we're talking about.

I wouldn't own a .357sig because I was never impressed with it's performance and ammo is sometimes hard to find and can be expensive. I do however like the 10mm for numerous reasons, one of them being it's versatility to from very low recoil moderate load to a magnum round that can go through a telephone pole.

As for human targets, granted there's no barrier (clothing aside) every cartridge listed will do just fine. I've always been a strong believer that size matters and I've only owned .45's until I bought my 10mm. However, after doing a lot of research into the issues at hand I'm now on my way to purchase a 9mm.

[kemasa]

Even with human targets, size does matter. Some ammunition will do better than others, even in the same caliber.

I like 9mm for target shooting, but I am not sure about it for self defense. Based on what I have read, I prefer .40S&W. The firearms are smaller than the 10mm since they don't have to be as strong. A full load 10mm might not work as well as a reduced load with respect to stopping a human and could go through someone and hit an innocent victim.

[locosway]

Over penetration is a myth, so is stopping power. I had those same feelings too until I became informed. Full penetration of a target is ideal for maximum blood loss which, without central nerve damage, is what will stop the target. I don't think most people are more than 12" from posterior to anterior. Yet this is the minimum penetration that is acceptable. Without hitting a bone, it's likely most calibers will pass through a body.

I feel that if the Glock 20 and 20sf were made in the 80's for the 10mm instead of the Bren Ten then we'd see the 10mm as the standard round for the FBI as well as many other agencies. Why? Because the 10mm is superior to all other usual handgun loads in it's full power form. It can also be really lite if needed for sensitive situations. I don't notice any more recoil in my 10mm then I do in a .40 or 9mm. My 1911 .45 by far has the most recoil.

[locosway]

I also forgot to mention this. The .22 was the preferred assassination round for the mob for many years. While I don't advocate a .22 for every day use, it is effective which shows that size doesn't matter. Shot placement does, and the ability to put more shots into a target increases the chances of getting that shot places properly.

[AJD]

Gary K. Roberts, D.D.S.

DDS is a dentist and that is why he is a doctor.

Gary K. Roberts
Naval Dental Center, San Francisco
Naval Station Treasure Island, BLDG 442-2
San Francisco, CA 94130-5030

Naval Dental Center???

Preliminary Evaluation of .357 SIG JHP Bullets Intended for Law Enforcement Duty
Gary K. Roberts, D.D.S.
Officer Don Lazzarini, Santa Clara Police Department

Note the word "Preliminary".

I also see that he has experience with the human body in terms of the damage that a bullet does, but what about real world shootings in which there is something which the bullet has to go through?

Just for clarification Dr. Roberts is a Maxillofacial Surgeon. Yes, those type of surgeons go to dental school and could just be classified as a "Dentist" however after Dental school they complete specialized training in surgery of the jaw, face and neck regions. They're actually more of a surgeon than just a "Dentist." Also Dr. Roberts served as an apprentice to Dr. Falkler who has been a Trauma Surgeon for a number of years and is really been one of the leading figures in modern wound ballistic theory. I believe he has also done extensive research in actual shootings as well. He used to post on the tacticalforums.com but now posts exclusively in this forum http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

[Napalm Bulldog]

"I know that any comments which are different than what your idol said at one point in time causes you emotional issues"

Pot meet kettle.^

I actually called and spoke with Dr.Roberts. His stance is that modern 9MM, .40S&W,357SIG, and .45 Automatic Colt Pistol calibers perform about the same. The larger and heavier loads offer a slight edge in permanent wound channel and are better at penetrating auto glass...


You can peddle your 357SIG FUD all you like. It cost twice as much as 9mm, can be difficult to find, and offers no real advantage
over modern 9MM loads. Yes the 9MM actually has gotten better over the last 100 years too Mr. Horse and Buggy Guy.


I suggest you stick to peddling guns and I will stick to actually using them. I am sure you have plenty of "suckers" lined up who buy your FUD. Fortunately for you their is a plethora of KOOL-AIDaholics who probably actually think they are getting something for their money when they buy a 357SIG pistol or ammo.

Their is a sucker born every minute has never been a truer statement.

First of all you are the one trolling throwing around insults but hey we can have Ivan make a determination if you would like? You have done nothing but name call anyone who doesnt want to accept your view. How is this brotherly?AR15.COM I have never been there so say what you will. Also what its your way or the highway right? Wrong! Were aloud to say how we feel and the last time I checked your not allowed to name call in here. I think you are walking a thin line. So you and I may disagree but it doesnt give you the right to name call. After all we all have one thing in common. We all like guns.