357 SIG

[Sig357]

I like my so called kool aid!

[AJD]

Some 357 Sig haters suggest that a +P+ 9mm Luger is equivalent to a 357 Sig whatever that means. Personally I wouldn't want to shoot a +P+ 9mm round out of my 9mm handgun I'd rather have a handgun designed for the round I am shooting. Besides I can get a 357 Sig cartridge that gives 2230 ft/sec and 707 lb at the muzzle if I want to play that game.

Actually you don't even need a +p+ 9mm to equal the terminal ballistics of the .357 sig. Even the +p variety equals the .357Sig in terms of penetration and expansion. And again what does energy from a handgun have to do with increased wounding or terminal performance? Nothing. As pointed out in the F.B.I. document on handgun wounding factors, which quotes numerous sources, even trauma surgeons, energy produced by handgun calibers does not even come close to causing additonal stretch cavities that would cause additonal tearing and wounding. It's a moot point.

[M198]

Well this is certainly an informative and heated thread. After reading all the post I can personally not see an instance where a 357sig round would be preferable to other rounds. Overall performance should be the deciding factor to what handgun you would use. It would be great to carry a 9mm for it's capacity, a FN 5.7 for penetration, and a 44 mag for stopping power. I don't think anyone is going to do it, but it would be great. I've always felt that 45acp is the best all around round for a handgun.

[ST5MF]

JDoe;2880009]That is my understanding as well.



You draw a reasonable conclusion however a 9mm Luger bullet is a different design than a 357 Sig bullet.



More tests are useful and one test is not, in my opinion enough to make a complete conclusion.


1---357 Sig haters like to spread a lot of FUD for some reason. For example the 357 Sig haters out there often state that the muzzle flash from a 357 Sig might blind you if you are shooting in a dark environment. That is FUD. The truth is that the muzzle flash is different depending on which ammo you use. Some 357 Sig ammo has nearly zero muzzle flash.


2---Other 357 Sig haters will offer up the suggestion that the 357 Sig will wear out a gun faster than say 9mm Luger or .45 Auto, etc. cartridges. That may be true but it is only a factor if you shoot a great deal and if you shoot a great deal you can afford whatever fixing your gun requires. If I am selecting a defensive handgun I'm not selecting it based on how much I can shoot it before I need to replace something I'm thinking about the 1 in a gazillion chance that I will need it to save my life.

3---Some 357 Sig haters suggest that a +P+ 9mm Luger is equivalent to a 357 Sig whatever that means. Personally I wouldn't want to shoot a +P+ 9mm round out of my 9mm handgun I'd rather have a handgun designed for the round I am shooting. Besides I can get a 357 Sig cartridge that gives 2230 ft/sec and 707 lb at the muzzle if I want to play that game.

1) Never said I "hated" the 357SIG nor is it a lousy round. Muzzle Flash? Blind? Grasping at straws with this one...

2) It ain't about replacing parts. It is something that most internet commandos know nothing about because they are ONLY concerned about how their gun or cartridge is better than the standard... IT IS CALLED "TRAINING." People who carry guns for a living understand how much more important shooting and tactical training actually is. As a "Professional Gunfighter" I understand that one sinks to his/her level of training and there is no such thing as "rising to the occasion."

3)SFW? You have still gained nothing. You have actually achieved going backwards as you have spent more to shoot/train less(?). You could have the proverbial "Holy Grail" of shooting cartridges; if you can't sustain a proficient level of training or readiness then what have you achieved? Just like the 357SIG... NOTHING.


Again. I don't hate the 357SIG round. I have some shooting experience with it. I don't like the FUD that many armchair kool-aid drinking commandos spread via the internet that 357SIG is some all mythical round superior to the standard. The realty is one is better served by shooting/training more with a 9MM etc than shooting/training less with a 357SIG.

[AJD]

Just to add a couple of final thoughts, I found this old post on the tacticalforums.com from Dr. Gary Roberts:

Unfortuantely, I can't provide a direct link, because you have to be a member to view the actual thread. And finally here is a link to Winchester's terminal performance data on their Ranger Talon ammo for all the common calibers-.45ACP, 9mm, .357Sig, and .40S&W. They tested according to the International wound ballistics testing protocol through a number of different barriers even steel. http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...g/testing.aspx

To view the data click on the "Launch comparison tool" and you can pick and compare data results from different calibers. As you can see by the results .357Sig and 9MM are nearly identical in all the various tests.

[Napalm Bulldog]

Just to add a couple of final thoughts, I found this old post on the tacticalforums.com from Dr. Gary Roberts:



Unfortuantely, I can't provide a direct link, because you have to be a member to view the actual thread. And finally here is a link to Winchester's terminal performance data on their Ranger Talon ammo for all the common calibers-.45ACP, 9mm, .357Sig, and .40S&W. They tested according to the International wound ballistics testing protocol through a number of different barriers even steel. http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...g/testing.aspx

To view the data click on the "Launch comparison tool" and you can pick and compare data results from different calibers. As you can see by the results .357Sig and 9MM are nearly identical in all the various tests.

Then my questionis what would be the point of making a different type of 9mm bullet if the .357 isnt better?

[ST5MF]

Then my questionis what would be the point of making a different type of 9mm bullet if the .357 isnt better?

This has been covered ad hoc. The bullet is different because of the increased velocity. However, the velocity isn't enough to make any "SIGNIFICANT" gains in performance.

[ST5MF]

I like my so called kool aid!

You are the MARKET!

[Napalm Bulldog]

This has been covered ad hoc. The bullet is different because of the increased velocity. However, the velocity isn't enough to make any "SIGNIFICANT" gains in performance.

ad HOC? Whats that mean?

[JDoe]

1) Never said I "hated" the 357SIG nor is it a lousy round. Muzzle Flash? Blind? Grasping at straws with this one...

Was my post directed at you specifically?

2) It ain't about replacing parts. It is something that most internet commandos know nothing about because they are ONLY concerned about how their gun or cartridge is better than the standard... IT IS CALLED "TRAINING." People who carry guns for a living understand how much more important shooting and tactical training actually is. As a "Professional Gunfighter" I understand that one sinks to his/her level of training and there is no such thing as "rising to the occasion."

You are a "Professional Gunfighter" now?

Unlike you I am not a "Professional Gunfighter" but I do know that one does not need to always train with the same gun he/she carries. But as a "Professional Gunfighter" you probably don't have to worry about the cost to train.

On the other hand it may be the case that the Secret Service trains all the time with the 357 SIG handguns they carry when protecting the POTUS.

3)SFW? You have still gained nothing. You have actually achieved going backwards as you have spent more to shoot/train less(?). You could have the proverbial "Holy Grail" of shooting cartridges; if you can't sustain a proficient level of training or readiness then what have you achieved? Just like the 357SIG... NOTHING.

How much does it actually cost to train with say .45 Auto vs 357 SIG? Oh that's right it costs more to train with .45 Auto. And really as a "Professional Gunfighter" you should be aware that just shooting a gun does not necessarily result in improved skill. If one is shooting the same old way for hundreds or thousands of rounds where does that get one except better at shooting the same old way.

No, there is more to training than just buying a handgun, getting some ammo and pulling the trigger. But as a "Professional Gunfighter" you know this.

Again. I don't hate the 357SIG round. I have some shooting experience with it. I don't like the FUD that many armchair kool-aid drinking commandos spread via the internet that 357SIG is some all mythical round superior to the standard. The realty is one is better served by shooting/training more with a 9MM etc than shooting/training less with a 357SIG.

Did I say that you hated the 357 SIG round?

I can appreciate that you don't like FUD but as a "Professional Gunfighter" you should be aware that when you engage in condescending, self aggrandizing behavior and misrepresent what people (like me) are specifically saying, you automatically lose. How can anyone believe you when you seek to convince not by using facts but through emotional outbursts and personal attack?

You speak of your dislike of FUD and yet you say that "one is better served by shooting/training more with a 9MM etc than shooting/training less with a 357SIG" and that sounds good until one stops to think what that might mean. Shooting more does not mean that one will improve ones skills. As a "Professional Gunfighter" you are no doubt aware of those individuals who have been shooting regularly for years and yet can't get a smaller than 12 inch group at 10 yards. How come they can't shoot better? They practice a lot. Practicing a lot is not by itself going to result in better shooting. The only way to shoot better is to practice better. It is far better to shoot 25 good shots in a practice session than shoot 250 poor shots.

[JDoe]

ad HOC? Whats that mean?

"for the particular end or case at hand without consideration of wider application"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc

[Napalm Bulldog]

"for the particular end or case at hand without consideration of wider application"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc

Thank you I learned something new today.

[Sig357]

You are the MARKET!

Actually I purchased a Sig P229 in .40 S & W and later purchased the .357sig conversion. It's always setup as a .40 s&w with Hydra-Shok's.

I don't understand all the hate and fuss over the .357sig round. It's just another round to choose from and enjoy. As a gun enthusiast I enjoy everything that has to do with firearms. I even have a Beretta Jetfire in .25acp, and would use it in self defense if I had too.

[JDoe]

Just to add a couple of final thoughts, I found this old post on the tacticalforums.com from Dr. Gary Roberts:

Unfortuantely, I can't provide a direct link, because you have to be a member to view the actual thread. And finally here is a link to Winchester's terminal performance data on their Ranger Talon ammo for all the common calibers-.45ACP, 9mm, .357Sig, and .40S&W. They tested according to the International wound ballistics testing protocol through a number of different barriers even steel. http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...g/testing.aspx

To view the data click on the "Launch comparison tool" and you can pick and compare data results from different calibers. As you can see by the results .357Sig and 9MM are nearly identical in all the various tests.

Hey thanks for the info AJD!

I don't think there is a dispute regarding these kinds of tests through denim, heavy cloth, wallboard or the simulated auto windshield and simulated car doors.

All of these cartridges, the 9mm Luger, the .40 S&W, .45 Auto and 357 SIG are fine defensive handgun rounds and have similar performance in ballistic gelatin. However based on what I have seen, as noted in this thread, when the other rounds fail to penetrate a barrier the 357 SIG will penetrate the barrier and that slight edge may make all the difference one day.

[JDoe]

There is only one difference I can see

And again what does energy from a handgun have to do with increased wounding or terminal performance? Nothing. As pointed out in the F.B.I. document on handgun wounding factors, which quotes numerous sources, even trauma surgeons, energy produced by handgun calibers does not even come close to causing additonal stretch cavities that would cause additonal tearing and wounding. It's a moot point.

The difference, the only real difference that counts in my opinion is that the 357 SIG has superior barrier penetration abilities. When when the other handgun rounds discussed (9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto) are stopped by a barrier the 357 SIG appears to be able to sail through with enough energy to stop the threat and that slight edge may make all the difference one day.