357 SIG

[Rob Roy]

While, I find .357SIG as an attractive round for barrier penetration, I'd still stick with .40S&W because it'a dominant LE round. If I feel the urge to shoot .357SIG, I'll get a drop-in barrel. This currently seems the wisest way to go with such a niche caliber.

[kemasa]

Over penetration is a myth, so is stopping power. I had those same feelings too until I became informed. Full penetration of a target is ideal for maximum blood loss which, without central nerve damage, is what will stop the target. I don't think most people are more than 12" from posterior to anterior. Yet this is the minimum penetration that is acceptable. Without hitting a bone, it's likely most calibers will pass through a body.

I feel that if the Glock 20 and 20sf were made in the 80's for the 10mm instead of the Bren Ten then we'd see the 10mm as the standard round for the FBI as well as many other agencies. Why? Because the 10mm is superior to all other usual handgun loads in it's full power form. It can also be really lite if needed for sensitive situations. I don't notice any more recoil in my 10mm then I do in a .40 or 9mm. My 1911 .45 by far has the most recoil.

Yes, but if you go to the extreme, such as a .50BMG, you would see that you would have far more problems than just stopping the perp. How much energy it has after going through someone is important with respect to safety.

I don't think you are correct about the Glock & 10mm. Remember, originally the FBI went towards the 10mm, but eventually changed to a 10mm short (.40S&W). I heard there was issues with the smaller agents. It would have been reasonable to go with a light 10mm load, then you could go up, but perhaps they also wanted to be able to go to a smaller firearm if they normally used the light loads. The reality is that the 10mm can do the same thing as a .40S&W, plus more if you go with a hotter load.

[devildog999]

Not very popular. My dad hadn't gone shooting in over 20 yrs so I took him, he was buying ammo for his .357 and bought some .357 sig not realizing it wouldn't work. It was hilarious watching him try to get those rounds into his revolver, until I informed him he bought the wrong ammo

[kemasa]

Not very popular. My dad hadn't gone shooting in over 20 yrs so I took him, he was buying ammo for his .357 and bought some .357 sig not realizing it wouldn't work. It was hilarious watching him try to get those rounds into his revolver, until I informed him he bought the wrong ammo

If he still has the ammo, I will take it. I would like to try my .357Sig :-).

[ST5MF]

First of all you are the one trolling throwing around insults but hey we can have Ivan make a determination if you would like? You have done nothing but name call anyone who doesnt want to accept your view. How is this brotherly?AR15.COM I have never been there so say what you will. Also what its your way or the highway right? Wrong! Were aloud to say how we feel and the last time I checked your not allowed to name call in here. I think you are walking a thin line. So you and I may disagree but it doesnt give you the right to name call. After all we all have one thing in common. We all like guns.

Not my view. It is the facts of professional ballistic scientists. You and your ilk question it and demand a 100 page documentation because it directly negates your personal desire to make the marketing gimmick 357SIG round something it is not. Someone post something contrary to your "belief" by an actual vetted scientist and suddenly it that persons "personal view." Prime example of armchair commando mentality. When you and the rest of the internet commando strike force delta get called out "YOU KNOW LIKEY."

[ST5MF]

If you bothered to read, you would see that while a own a .357 Sig barrel, I have never used it. So your attempt to classify me is completely incorrect.

Perhaps some comment should be made with regards to your relationship with Dr. Roberts, just like you have done to others :-).

Cost is not an aspect which is being discussed as to whether a .357 Sig is a better round. I have actually heard that right now .357 Sig is easier to find since it stays on the shelves as few people buy it, so it is false that it is difficult to find as it can be easier than other ammunition.

I am not the one who sticks like glue to old ammunition, so why in the world would you call me the "Mr. Horse and Buggy Guy". That makes no sense at all, but I guess it fits into your mentality and (lack of) logic. I am suggesting that newer designs might be better.

Please explain how 9mm Luger has gotten better over the last hundred years in a way that would make it better than newer designs that were designed to make use of the newer powders.

You don't think that a person is getting something for their money when they buy a .357 Sig pistol or ammo? Quite clearly they get a pistol or ammo, so they do actually get something. Also, at times you can get a better value for your money by buying a .357 Sig pistol, as I did, because it is cheaper and you can get a .40S&W barrel for a lower price than if you bought the same pistol in .40S&W. This means your statement makes no sense at all and is also false.

Your personal attacks show what type of person you are. Again and again you make false statements and attacks, rather than dealing with facts. I have to wonder if you really did talk to Dr. Roberts. How about getting Dr. Roberts to make a current statement with regards to the various choices, rather than just your hearsay.

I think that what applies to you is the statement about fooling people. You want to push your agenda and don't want to deal with the actual facts.

You are funny. You make comments about how people have LOST THEIR LIVES or are INJURED because they had/used 9mm and .45ACP weapons (but if they had a 357SIG they might be alive/un-injured right?) as well as the "a leather jacket is bullet proof against .45" and you want to be taken seriously(?).

You are just so full of "FACTS."

Wow just wow.

[kemasa]

You are funny. You make comments about how people have LOST THEIR LIVES or are INJURED because they had/used 9mm and .45ACP weapons (but if they had a 357SIG they might be alive/un-injured right?) as well as the "a leather jacket is bullet proof against .45" and you want to be taken seriously(?).

You are just so full of "FACTS."

Wow just wow.

You say "Not my view. It is the facts of professional ballistic scientists.", so who is the other scientist?

Where did I said that they would be alive or uninjured if that had used a .357Sig? You need to look at the FBI shootout and the result from that and figure out why the FBI decided to make some changes because the ammunition used did not work as well as they would like and they found something better.

You said that the .357Sig is the same as all the other common rounds, 9mm, .40S&W, .45, which is just not correct as all of those have difference characteristics.

I also never said that a leather jacket is bullet proof against .45, but that in some cases it can cause the round to not penetrate.

[Napalm Bulldog]

Not my view. It is the facts of professional ballistic scientists. You and your ilk question it and demand a 100 page documentation because it directly negates your personal desire to make the marketing gimmick 357SIG round something it is not. Someone post something contrary to your "belief" by an actual vetted scientist and suddenly it that persons "personal view." Prime example of armchair commando mentality. When you and the rest of the internet commando strike force delta get called out "YOU KNOW LIKEY."

Your full of double talk. Not your view ?,
So if you dont have one why are you posting in this thread? It is your view because you keep defending what you have presented to us as utter scientific poppycock! So keep calling me and others who disagree with you names and Im sure you will be handed down a little vacation in band land soon. I dont think the moderators will miss your name calling for long.

[B Strong]

If you want to get a high velocity 9mm class cartridge, go .38 Super or 9 x 23 - my next project will be the 9 x 23 in a large frame steel Witness.

[ST5MF]

You say "Not my view. It is the facts of professional ballistic scientists.", so who is the other scientist?

Where did I said that they would be alive or uninjured if that had used a .357Sig? You need to look at the FBI shootout and the result from that and figure out why the FBI decided to make some changes because the ammunition used did not work as well as they would like and they found something better.

You said that the .357Sig is the same as all the other common rounds, 9mm, .40S&W, .45, which is just not correct as all of those have difference characteristics.

I also never said that a leather jacket is bullet proof against .45, but that in some cases it can cause the round to not penetrate.

I have studied the MIAMI SHOOT-OUT. I actually took a college course that covered it quite extensively (BA in CJ).

One of the perps was killed immediately by the FBI agents using 9's and .38's. The other wielding the mini 14 is the one who did the damage. The fact that the guy 1)Had a rifle and 2)Actually shot and yes "trained" frequently how to use it accounted for why he handed the FEDS their ***'s.

When the .40 or 10MM short came about it was better than the current 9mm offerings. Advancements in bullet technology have since changed that.

This has nothing to do with the 357SIG however; which the FBI doesn't issue.

The mentality and unprepared mental state (RE: they under estimated the perps) of the FEDS is what got most of them killed or injured. The agent (also wounded by a rifle round) who finally killed the perp actually advocated the .45ACP for years and carried a SIG P220.

He killed the perp with a shotgun if I remember correctly. Been a while since I studied the MIAMI Shoot-out.

Anyway. I am growing weary of "feeding the trolls" and I have some ranges to RSO for men who actually train to use their guns not "J*** O**" to them.

Have fun playing commando on the internet.

[ST5MF]

Your full of double talk. Not your view ?,
So if you dont have one why are you posting in this thread? It is your view because you keep defending what you have presented to us as utter scientific poppycock! So keep calling me and others who disagree with you names and Im sure you will be handed down a little vacation in band land soon. I dont think the moderators will miss your name calling for long.

I don't confuse views with facts unlike yourself.

Go cry to mommy.

[locosway]

Wow, this thread is still going?

Why not agree to disagree and let it go. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If anyone is interested in knowing the facts on any caliber round they can just look them up.

[ST5MF]

Wow, this thread is still going?

Why not agree to disagree and let it go. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If anyone is interested in knowing the facts on any caliber round they can just look them up.

But then the 357SIG wont be the "be all end all" and feelings will get hurt and butts bruised.

The KOOL-AID can't stop. It is an addiction!

[kemasa]

Again, you ignore questions: You say "Not my view. It is the facts of professional ballistic scientists.", so who is the other scientist?

As far as I know, you speak of only one of many possible scientists.

Actually, the Miami shootout does have something to do with the .357Sig, but it seems that you don't know what the connection is. It also has something to do with bullet designs too. Both are related, can you figure it out?

One aspect I heard was that a shot, which was to be the fatal shot, took some time to stop the perp, which is an issue and that relates to the above as well.

Again you lower yourself to making childish comments and trying to insult those that you don't know anything about. Perhaps you are speaking more of yourself than anything else.

[locosway]

One aspect I heard was that a shot, which was to be the fatal shot, took some time to stop the perp, which is an issue and that relates to the above as well.

The .357sig won't stop a target any more than the others. Shot placement is key assuming 12" of penetration which all current rounds will do. Be able to pass through barriers is partly due to the bullet design and partly due to the speed of that bullet. Hence why the 5.7 was successful in defeating body armor.

Special circumstances aside, there's no difference in any of the rounds discussed in this thread.