CA DROS Delay

[Dc2 r guy]

I'm going through the same issue right now.
Did 2 separate private party transfers

8/5/22 - Dros
8/11/22 got the call from turners.
waiting on my letter from the DOJ


8/7/22 - Dros
8/15/22 - Got the call from ammo bros.
waiting on my letter from the DOJ

Got the call today from ammo bro.
Green light for pick up 9/2

Called turners
Got the green light as well
9/2

[ar15barrels]

^^^ "MAY and SHALL" ^^^ Are synonymous when used in legal statutes.

So synonymous that we have this animated CCW issuance map with blue to show shall issue and and yellow to show may issue:

[pacrat]

Just want to clear up one little thing.... which has been addressed before:

THERE ARE NO INSURANCE POLICIES FOR FIREARM DEALERS - 50-STATE WIDE - IN EXISTENCE - THAT PREVENT IT!!

If a dealer is using that as an excuse to hide behind, and blame some unidentifiable third party because it sounds all "officially" to someone that would not have any clue otherwise - they are full of crap and lying.

That is all.

---

^^^ ALL OF THAT ^^^

[pacrat]

I am not a lawyer, so I have a bit of curiosity regarding the word may in this statement from the penal code:



"May" implies that the FFL has the choice whether or not to release on 'undetermined', as opposed to "shall" (if that word was used instead of "may") which means the FFL would be breaking the law if they chose not to release on 'undetermined'.

For you legal eagles, am I correct in my assumption here?
-P

^^^ NO ^^^

It needs to be changed to shall and they would have to release it on undetermined correct?

^^^ "MAY and SHALL" ^^^ Are synonymous when used in legal statutes.

From my legal experience/background (not a lawyer, different type of background)

• May gives someone the option to do it. It means they can, if they want to, at their own discretion.
• Shall means they MUST perform that action.

In this case (again from my legal understanding) the FFL CAN release it, they have permission to do so. They are not required by law to do so. They may have their own insurance/company policies that prevent it. This is why/how some of the FFLs out there do not release on undetermined. They are NOT within their right to do so, but I (and likely many others) are making the choice to not shop at those places.

^^^ NOPE ^^^ 66nick, you previously quoted 28220[f][4], even though you numbered it as a 9. Which describes "UNDETERMINED RELEASE" AFTER 30 DAYS

Now look at 28220[f][A]. Which describes "APPROVED RELEASE" after 10 DAYS. IN THE SAME STATUTE.

THEY ARE WORDED EXACTLY THE SAME. The only difference is the NUMBER OF DAYS. In a typical dictionary. "MAY' is often, defined as permissive. BUT in LEGAL DICTIONARIES. Going back to 1856. Here is the definition. https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/May

may
v. a choice to act or not, or a promise of a possibility, as distinguished from "shall" which makes it imperative. 2) in statutes, and sometimes in contracts, the word "may" must be read in context to determine if it means an act is optional or mandatory, for it may be an imperative. The same careful analysis must be made of the word "shall." Non-lawyers tend to see the word "may" and think they have a choice or are excused from complying with some statutory provision or regulation. (See: shall)MAY. To be permitted; to be at liberty; to have the power.
2. Whenever a statute directs the doing of a thing for the sake of justice or the public good, the word may is the same as shall. For example, the 23 H. VI. says, the sheriff may take bail, that is construed he shall, for he is compellable to do so. Carth. 293 Salk. 609; Skin. 370.
3. The words shall and may in general acts of the legislature or in private constitutions, are to be construed imperatively; 3. Atk. 166; but the construction of those words in a deed depends on circumstances. 3 Atk. 282. See 1 Vern. 152, case. 142 9 Porter, R. 390.

A Law Dictionary, Adapted to the Constitution and Laws of the United States. By John Bouvier. Published 1856.

When the legislature ADDED [4] to the statute. 23 yrs after [A]. They knew exactly what they meant to say. Because they were simply adding to [A].

FFLs .................. NEVER HAD ANY DISCRETION WHETHER TO RELEASE OR NOT.

[The Gleam]

From my legal experience/background (not a lawyer, different type of background)

• May gives someone the option to do it. It means they can, if they want to, at their own discretion.
• Shall means they MUST perform that action.

In this case (again from my legal understanding) the FFL CAN release it, they have permission to do so. They are not required by law to do so. They may have their own insurance/company policies that prevent it. This is why/how some of the FFLs out there do not release on undetermined. They are within their right to do so, but I (and likely many others) are making the choice to not shop at those places.

Just want to clear up one little thing.... which has been addressed before:

THERE ARE NO INSURANCE POLICIES FOR FIREARM DEALERS - 50-STATE WIDE - IN EXISTENCE - THAT PREVENT IT!!

If a dealer is using that as an excuse to hide behind, and blame some unidentifiable third party because it sounds all "officially" to someone that would not have any clue otherwise - they are full of crap and lying.

That is all.

---

[SkyHawk]

Just got a text from my buddy, he was delayed almost 30 days at Sportsmans and just got word he was approved. He has bought at least five guns in the past 12-18 months so I am not sure wth happened.

[SkyHawk]

Thanks, I will do that do I still have to wait for my Live Scan to clear?

That probably does not apply in California, he was answering somebody in Arizona. In California, the CADOJ is the POC for the NICS checks. I don't recall whether the DROS form has a place for a UPIN.

Correct, not applicable in CA unless dealing with the CMP because they will do NICs checks on CA buyers and a UPIN can be the difference between success and failure for some people.

And no the DROS form does not have a place for a UPIN although you might be able to get CA DOJ to attach one to your permanent file.

[66nick]

From my legal experience/background (not a lawyer, different type of background)

• May gives someone the option to do it. It means they can, if they want to, at their own discretion.
• Shall means they MUST perform that action.

In this case (again from my legal understanding) the FFL CAN release it, they have permission to do so. They are not required by law to do so. They may have their own insurance/company policies that prevent it. This is why/how some of the FFLs out there do not release on undetermined. They are within their right to do so, but I (and likely many others) are making the choice to not shop at those places.

[LMan57]

It needs to be changed to shall and they would have to release it on undetermined correct?

[The Gleam]

I am not a lawyer, so I have a bit of curiosity regarding the word may in this statement from the penal code:



"May" implies that the FFL has the choice whether or not to release on 'undetermined', as opposed to "shall" (if that word was used instead of "may") which means the FFL would be breaking the law if they chose not to release on 'undetermined'.

For you legal eagles, am I correct in my assumption here?
-P

Discussed at length numerous time in various threads and somewhere in this one too - now going in circles.

Consensus is that they must release on undetermined, especially if the NICs approval is received, which in most cases of delay/undetermined, it is.

--

[Preston-CLB]

I am not a lawyer, so I have a bit of curiosity regarding the word may in this statement from the penal code:

...the dealer may then immediately transfer the firearm to the purchaser...

"May" implies that the FFL has the choice whether or not to release on 'undetermined', as opposed to "shall" (if that word was used instead of "may") which means the FFL would be breaking the law if they chose not to release on 'undetermined'.

For you legal eagles, am I correct in my assumption here?
-P

[JEM72]

[66nick]

So, who here has been delayed the the longest?… I bought 9 guns that were on consignment. 8 handguns and 1 long gun all on one DROS. Today is day 59. 32 years of buying, selling and trading, never a problem until now….I’m also a ccw holder and a Federal employee…wtf?…

From my understanding of the law, you're only *supposed* to be delayed for 20, 24-hour periods (days) plus the original 10, 24-hour periods (days) wait. After 30, 24-hour periods (days) you become undetermined and the FFL either follows CA Penal Code 29220 (f)(4) and releases, or they (as a business) choose to not release on undetermined.


https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=28220.
CA Penal Code 29220 (f)(4) states:

If the department is unable to ascertain the final disposition of the arrest or criminal charge, or the outcome of the mental health treatment or evaluation, or the purchaser’s eligibility to purchase a firearm, as described in paragraph (1), within 30 days of the dealer’s original submission of purchaser information to the department pursuant to this section, the department shall immediately notify the dealer and the dealer may then immediately transfer the firearm to the purchaser, upon the dealer’s recording on the register or record of electronic transfer the date that the firearm is transferred, the dealer signing the register or record of electronic transfer indicating delivery of the firearm to that purchaser, and the purchaser signing the register or record of electronic transfer acknowledging the receipt of the firearm on the date that the firearm is delivered to the purchaser.

[JEM72]

So, who here has been delayed the the longest?… I bought 9 guns that were on consignment. 8 handguns and 1 long gun all on one DROS. Today is day 59. 32 years of buying, selling and trading, never a problem until now….I’m also a ccw holder and a Federal employee…wtf?…

[LMan57]

That probably does not apply in California, he was answering somebody in Arizona. In California, the CADOJ is the POC for the NICS checks. I don't recall whether the DROS form has a place for a UPIN.

Oh, thanks I did not notice that.