Breaking Down The US Army’s Sub Compact Weapon Program

[BajaJames83]

All this talk about rpm when the real question will be, how cheaply can the Army get them?

this is pretty big for sure, you know there will be some deals cut, but they are not buying too much in the volume dept so who knows.

[walmart_ar15]

All this talk about rpm when the real question will be, how cheaply can the Army get them?

Hence, the best bang for the buck will be the AR-9s. Army can even use the existing M4 lowers. Just swap the upper, swap the 9mm buffer, and put in a mag adaptor.

[SAD338]

Hence, the best bang for the buck will be the AR-9s. Army can even use the existing M4 lowers. Just swap the upper, swap the 9mm buffer, and put in a mag adaptor.

The 2nd mistake is adding some common sense into the procurement process.

I predict it will follow the MHS process in that it'll take years to complete and once the winner is selected, it'll be riddled with technical issues and legal challenges from the contract losers. All for a weapon system that'll hardly be used.

[mlevans66]

Sad, more like who will benefit from a contract and for what reasons will they benefit?

Small arms procurement in pistol calibers has always been mired in backroom deals. It's why we ended up with an Italian pistol while wanting bases in Italy. Or why we are getting a poorly made and designed German copy of an Austrian pistol at retail prices instead of bulk pricing.

This always happens and I'm always annoyed we don't go "America First" when it comes to our military arms. Why pick 320 when a M&P is really just a decent? Why pick the Sig when the CMMG 9mm AR is as small and the controls are familiar?

[sigstroker]

Good old MAC. 500 rpm may be a bit too slow for a subgun. I think folks stated the sweet spot is ~ 800 - 900 rpm.

Still remember when Front Site was giving out free machine gun shoot for their sales marketing. 1200+ rpm is surprisingly controllable on a M11/9mm.

It's tunable with the Mac Jack system between 500 and 1800 rpm and pretty much any speed in between.

[tomk556]

Big Army looking for a reason to spend money again.

X2.

Personal security detail? All I'm saying is when have those units ever had a problem getting whatever weapon they want? And then the first time they deal with an adversary more than 100m away, it'll be back to thinking the carbine is the only way to go.

[mlevans66]

X2.

Personal security detail? All I'm saying is when have those units ever had a problem getting whatever weapon they want? And then the first time they deal with an adversary more than 100m away, it'll be back to thinking the carbine is the only way to go.

If that was the case the MP5 would have been gone a long time ago.

[tomk556]

If that was the case the MP5 would have been gone a long time ago.

Precisely, which is why it's way more common to see M4s these days.

[mlevans66]

Precisely, which is why it's way more common to see M4s these days.

The 5.56 round is not a good round for what they are looking for. Its a reason PCC are still popular around the world.

[NapalmCheese]

Hence, the best bang for the buck will be the AR-9s. Army can even use the existing M4 lowers. Just swap the upper, swap the 9mm buffer, and put in a mag adaptor.

This always happens and I'm always annoyed we don't go "America First" when it comes to our military arms. Why pick 320 when a M&P is really just a decent? Why pick the Sig when the CMMG 9mm AR is as small and the controls are familiar?

How does the folding stock work on those pistol caliber AR's?

[audiophil2]

They should rethink that and pick the .300 Blackout SIG Rattler. Smaller than an MP5 and much more powerful. Punches level II body armor like butter and works great with a silencer.

I'm still not impressed with the 300bo. My buddy was shooting it suppressed with 200gr S&B ammo. It was quiet from 15 yards away but it still requires hearing protection for the user. My AR9 with 9" barrel running 158gr ammo was quieter than his gun and my ammo is $.26/round vs his $.75/rnd. Plenty of off the shelf 9mm FMJ rounds will make waste of a level II vest also and the military can easily get better stuff. 300bo is also gas finicky so you either overgas for every type of ammo or adjust the block for the ammo oyu will be using. 9mm is not that finicky.

Why no love for the UZI machine pistol. 80's flash back, heavy, but compact.

Way to heavy. I love mine but it is a rocking horse as a pistol.

Heard of spray and pray? UZI would be a terrible choice. They simply have too much money to spend on a new pet project rather then use existing roller lock variants that already work great.

My full size open bolt UZI is extremely accurate out to 200 yards when I am using the folding stock. The weight makes multiple round hits on a torso very easy out to 50 yards.

Ironically, a good choice in 9mm might be the good old M11/9.

Under 500 rpm with tungsten bolt.

Too bad it would never be taken seriously.

The MACs are so under rated. Almost as if there was a conspiracy to shut them out of contracts.

Good old MAC. 500 rpm may be a bit too slow for a subgun. I think folks stated the sweet spot is ~ 800 - 900 rpm.

Still remember when Front Site was giving out free machine gun shoot for their sales marketing. 1200+ rpm is surprisingly controllable on a M11/9mm.

500-600 is pretty good for a subgun. I wish more of my subguns ran at that speed. My STEN is the slowest and if it was not so horribly archaic it would be a goof contender if redesigned. It has zero recoil for being so light and it and my UZI can do single shots all day in full auto and when needed dump a mag. Way better than the progressive P90 and flipping a switch on other subguns.

No Kriss vector? But all the movies....

Junk. That's why.

Hence, the best bang for the buck will be the AR-9s. Army can even use the existing M4 lowers. Just swap the upper, swap the 9mm buffer, and put in a mag adaptor.

I like my AR9 subgun but the lack of a folding stock and the recoil impulse of the so much of the internals sliding in the buffer tube make it annoying to shoot. It is a great gun and is reliable. I run it suppressed mostly and with my obsidian can with an armasight core and lasermax IR laser I can walk through my private range picking off gongs in complete darkness.



My choice would be a scorpion. With a quality trigger it seems to be the best of the choices I have. Lightweight, folding stock with good cheekweld, low profile dot mount so optic is close to bore, ambi sling mounts, and dirt cheap.

I'm waiting to try out a STRIBOG but I'm guessing I would not like it due to the charging handle.

[mlevans66]

How does the folding stock work on those pistol caliber AR's?

Well for the AR pistols I do not know. They can be adapted to add LTF.

[mlevans66]

My choice would be a scorpion. With a quality trigger it seems to be the best of the choices I have. Lightweight, folding stock with good cheekweld, low profile dot mount so optic is close to bore, ambi sling mounts, and dirt cheap.

I'm waiting to try out a STRIBOG but I'm guessing I would not like it due to the charging handle.

The MPX thought cool, is a lot of parts to replace and pricey. I agree with the CZ as the best choice but the only thing I don't like about it is that its not American.

[BajaJames83]

with army money in the mix and the new p320 contract the MPX should be pretty easy for SIG to land. I bet they will offer a pretty attractive price as well.
For those who have shot the MPX side by side several other sub guns it is pretty hard to beat

[SAD338]

with army money in the mix and the new p320 contract the MPX should be pretty easy for SIG to land. I bet they will offer a pretty attractive price as well.
For those who have shot the MPX side by side several other sub guns it is pretty hard to beat

SIG knows how to play the procurement game. Who knows who and who blows who.

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/05/10/us-army-selects-sig-optic-for-squad-designated-marksman-rifle/