HD use; less lethal options

[aippi]

The reason for this as the first round for HD has nothing to do with killing or not killing. If you have ever deployed a weapon in a real situation you would get it, might not agree with it but would at least get it. Joe Dog does.

The more some of you talk about killing and all those deadly calibers, rounds and all that other mess the clearer it becomes to those of us that have been there that you never have. I pray for your sake you never are.

[inbox485]

The reason for this as the first round for HD has nothing to do with killing or not killing. If you have ever deployed a weapon in a real situation you would get it, might not agree with it but would at least get it. Joe Dog does.

The more some of you talk about killing and all those deadly calibers, rounds and all that other mess the clearer it becomes to those of us that have been there that you never have. I pray for your sake you never are.

Good grief! How's the weather up there? I don't think there are too many people here that don't get that LL ammo has some benefits with regard to over penetration and that it tends to stop fights without actually killing anybody. Thinking it unwise to bet on something less effective in actually stopping an attack doesn't mean people don't get it. I don't see SWAT teams switching to LL ammo for residential entries and most of us happen to agree with that logic.

[tacticalcity]

JD,

I didn't mean anything personal about it. Was just trying to sum up my mindset in catchy little phrase. So if offended you then I most sincerely oppologize. That was not my intent at all.

My mindset is not based on wanting to be killer. It is based on hearing about lots of law enforcement guys getting killed because their hollow points are not doing the trick. It is about balancing the need to put the bad guy down immediately vs. not accidentally harming an innocent bystander. As much as I do not ever want to harm the wrong person, I need absolute confidence in my ability to put the badgun down and keep him down and out of the fight.

To that end, I have chosen to invest a lot of time and money into training. I routinely take firarms courses offered by off duty SWAT guys in my area, and even spend my vacations (and a hefty chunk of my salary) taking more expensive courses out of state to make sure that my skill level is up to par. If I send it, I want to guarentee it, and I want it to do the trick.

Again, I meant no offense. I just have a fundamentally different philosphy based on my own training, experience, and the experiences of those I trust to train me. It most definately NOT a personal attack on you.

For the record, I do know a little about you and your company (unless I have the wrong company). Not to kiss your rear, but you make some really great custom shotguns. Very impressive stuff.

I certainly hope my comment did not burn a bridge. I've worked hard to maintain some pretty strong relationships with other retailers and people in this industry, and I would very much hate for a silly post to cause a rift with someone who's work I really enjoy.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

If you want less than lethal, don't pick up a gun.

Baseball bats, pool cues, golf clubs, large dogs. These are less than lethal. Not that they can't be lethal too.

Guns are for killing to defend your life. Don't try to make them something they're not.

[Casual_Shooter]

Here you go.

[aippi]

After reading the three post after my last post I should rest my case. Except to make one last attempt to get these guys to stop trying to be such killers and think about the act and the responsibility that comes with that firearm. YOU CAN MAKE A MISTAKE. I can tell guys have never been in a shoot or don't shoot situation or have never fired your weapons other then on a range. Everything changes, motor skill, your breathing, what you see, hear and perceive. It can be surreal and time can stop. But right now you are now sitting at a computer saying what you will do yet you are safe and comfortable and in no danger or perceived danger. When the time comes to pull that trigger "THAT IS NOT HOW IT IS GOING TO BE". If you make a mistake with this munition you can live with it and so can they. If you have any proficiency with your weapon you can fire both the Specialty Impact munition and the next lethal round in less then a second. You have control and room for error.

You are not HRT members clearing a building, you are not cops at a traffic stop and your not Delta Force Commandos saving the free world. You are a guy who thinks he hears someone in his house at 3:00 AM and you are coming out of your bedroom with one of the most deadly shoulder weapons there is. If you confront someone you are going to have a nano second to act. YOU BETTER BE EFF'N RIGHT IN WHAT YOU DO.

How dare you make sheep and marshmallow cracks about my opinion on this subject. You don't know me, don't know where I've been and you sure would not make them in my presence. I tell my clients about this option and why to use it. They can take it or leave it. I never said this is the only munition, I simply stated it is the first round in my HD and I will explain why to anyone who contacts me. Yet you real killers will not even admit the option has merit for some. You try to label the person who would consider this option as some kind of weakling. When in truth that person understands the issue of deadly force, understands that he can make a mistake and is comfortable enough with his ability to use this option.

See unlike you I am proficient with my weapon and I can fire that specialty impact munition and my next lethal round in the same amount of time it will take you to get your safety off. So being that good with my 870 I am comfortable using this munition and I use it for the right reasons. Being this good with my weapon gives me some options that some of you may not have so this munition is not right for you so don't use it.

You guys are what is wrong with these type web sites. You deter some users from asking questions and posting opinions. I am not deterred by the likes of some of you as I know you are out there and I know you are harmless. Your tuff talk is to make up for something lacking in your perception of yourself. So you spill the killer talk like a barking little dogs. I trust the average reader sees merit in many of the post from guys on this subject wether they agree or not. They understand the topic and the reasoning behind both points of view. I also trust they see some of you for what you are.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

Hey aippi, I confess I'm totally mystified as to your reasons for using LTL rounds as your first round loaded in a shotgun. You sound like an oracle to me, speaking in riddles without ever answering the question.

All you do is characterize the others in this discussion without contributing any of your knowledge or opinions. I'm curious about your ideas.

#1. Why do you choose to use a LTL round?

#2 Do you realize that the LTL round can be and often is in fact lethal?


I'm not trying to talk tough. I just believe that if you pick up a gun you're very likely to risk killing someone no matter what you load as the first round and unless that is your intent, don't pick up a gun.

I await your answers.

[inbox485]

After reading the three post after my last post I should rest my case. Except to make one last attempt to get these guys to stop trying to be such killers and think about the act and the responsibility that comes with that firearm. YOU CAN MAKE A MISTAKE. I can tell guys have never been in a shoot or don't shoot situation or have never fired your weapons other then on a range. Everything changes, motor skill, your breathing, what you see, hear and perceive. It can be surreal and time can stop. But right now you are now sitting at a computer saying what you will do yet you are safe and comfortable and in no danger or perceived danger. When the time comes to pull that trigger "THAT IS NOT HOW IT IS GOING TO BE". If you make a mistake with this munition you can live with it and so can they. If you have any proficiency with your weapon you can fire both the Specialty Impact munition and the next lethal round in less then a second. You have control and room for error.

You are not HRT members clearing a building, you are not cops at a traffic stop and your not Delta Force Commandos saving the free world. You are a guy who thinks he hears someone in his house at 3:00 AM and you are coming out of your bedroom with one of the most deadly shoulder weapons there is. If you confront someone you are going to have a nano second to act. YOU BETTER BE EFF'N RIGHT IN WHAT YOU DO.

How dare you make sheep and marshmallow cracks about my opinion on this subject. You don't know me, don't know where I've been and you sure would not make them in my presence. I tell my clients about this option and why to use it. They can take it or leave it. I never said this is the only munition, I simply stated it is the first round in my HD and I will explain why to anyone who contacts me. Yet you real killers will not even admit the option has merit for some. You try to label the person who would consider this option as some kind of weakling. When in truth that person understands the issue of deadly force, understands that he can make a mistake and is comfortable enough with his ability to use this option.

See unlike you I am proficient with my weapon and I can fire that specialty impact munition and my next lethal round in the same amount of time it will take you to get your safety off. So being that good with my 870 I am comfortable using this munition and I use it for the right reasons. Being this good with my weapon gives me some options that some of you may not have so this munition is not right for you so don't use it.

You guys are what is wrong with these type web sites. You deter some users from asking questions and posting opinions. I am not deterred by the likes of some of you as I know you are out there and I know you are harmless. Your tuff talk is to make up for something lacking in your perception of yourself. So you spill the killer talk like a barking little dogs. I trust the average reader sees merit in many of the post from guys on this subject wether they agree or not. They understand the topic and the reasoning behind both points of view. I also trust they see some of you for what you are.

Are you just daft? Who the F do you think you are to think people here can't shoot? I've taken defensive classes. I can hit two different clays in about a second with an HD shotgun. I've stated before you showed up with your pedestal insulting everybody with generalities that there were merits to LL ammo but that it was my opinion that they were outweighed by the downsides - in fact I don't think you have alluded to a single benefit that I personally hadn't mentioned already. Obviously you disagree and like the idea of front loading with LL ammo. Good for you - and anybody else (at least it isn't birdshot). My life won't change one bit if you live or die. But then you insist on insulting people as if you are the only person on earth that could possibly know what you are talking about. I'm not sure who was spilling the killer talk, and nobody here has been nearly as insulting and inflammatory as you have. I've only stated that I care more about stopping an intruder than his well being after the fact. Obviously we aren't talking about LE/Mil activities. They have backup. An HD shooter gets one shot at living and nobody is going to save their butt if they go down. And while LE/Mil get to make the same nano second decisions, I don't see them front loading LL ammo just in case there is a mistake. If you said half of what you've stated as generalities in person, I would have said much more than just marshmallow jokes. I think a lot of them are people just trying to laugh you off rather than tell you to piss up a rope.

[tacticalcity]

JD,

I didn't mean anything personal about it. Was just trying to sum up my mindset in catchy little phrase. So if offended you then I most sincerely oppologize. That was not my intent at all.

My mindset is not based on wanting to be killer. It is based on hearing about lots of law enforcement guys getting killed because their hollow points are not doing the trick. It is about balancing the need to put the bad guy down immediately vs. not accidentally harming an innocent bystander. As much as I do not ever want to harm the wrong person, I need absolute confidence in my ability to put the badgun down and keep him down and out of the fight.

To that end, I have chosen to invest a lot of time and money into training. I routinely take firarms courses offered by off duty SWAT guys in my area, and even spend my vacations (and a hefty chunk of my salary) taking more expensive courses out of state to make sure that my skill level is up to par. If I send it, I want to guarentee it, and I want it to do the trick.

Again, I meant no offense. I just have a fundamentally different philosphy based on my own training, experience, and the experiences of those I trust to train me. It most definately NOT a personal attack on you.

For the record, I do know a little about you and your company (unless I have the wrong company). Not to kiss your rear, but you make some really great custom shotguns. Very impressive stuff.

[inbox485]

Hey aippi, I confess I'm totally mystified as to your reasons for using LTL rounds as your first round loaded in a shotgun. You sound like an oracle to me, speaking in riddles without ever answering the question.

All you do is characterize the others in this discussion without contributing any of your knowledge or opinions. I'm curious about your ideas.

#1. Why do you choose to use a LTL round?

• To reduce liability if you end up shooting a kid's friend, spouce coming home unexpected etc.
• To reduce the weight of conscience relating to taking a life - even if it was justified
• To reduce risk of hitting innocents if all pellets are not stopped by the intended target

#2 Do you realize that the LTL round can be and often is in fact lethal?

Can be lethal, but there are rubber loads designed for close range direct impact that are suitable for HD. Aimed at gut level (per every manufacture's instructions I've read) chances of penetration are supposedly slim to none and lethality in the case of penetration is also slim.

I'm not trying to talk tough. I just believe that if you pick up a gun you're very likely to risk killing someone no matter what you load as the first round and unless that is your intent, don't pick up a gun.

I await your answers.

I'm not sure if he is capable of a succinct, direct answer so I took a stab at it above. My detraction from their use is that at close range, pain compliance may not have any effect, and while I can hit two different clays in about a second, I can also close 10 feet and put a knife in your heart in about a second so you might only get one shot.

Edit: I could also correlate the use of LL ammo to a study I read on how anti-locking brakes resulted in no improvement in road safety since drivers on average compensated for them by driving more recklessly.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

I'm not sure if he is capable of a succinct, direct answer so I took a stab at it above. My detraction from their use is that at close range, pain compliance may not have any effect, and while I can hit two different clays in about a second, I can also close 10 feet and put a knife in your heart in about a second so you might only get one shot.

Edit: I could also correlate the use of LL ammo to a study I read on how anti-locking brakes resulted in no improvement in road safety since drivers on average compensated for them by driving more recklessly.

So instruct me please. How does this LTL Home Defense work? According to the experts anyway.

I wake up to a noise at 3AM, walk down the hall with my shotgun, see some unrecognizable human shape in the living room and blast it with my rubber buckshot, then turn on the lights to see who it is?

I am not well trained or very tactical but I have it firmly in mind that I'm not going to point a weapon at an unidentified someone, unless they're clearly trying to kill me first. I give up my advantage of surprise but I'm deeply committed to not killing someone who doesn't need it.

I can well imagine my daft Aunt Millie having another fight with her boyfriend, getting real drunk and trying to sneak into my house to sleep on my couch "cause I didn't want to wake you dear." Or some such unlikely scenario that can and does happen and then the Suburban Commando with an itchy trigger finger has taken an innocent life.

If I aim my weapon it is with the intent to kill. If I'm not sure then the muzzle is in a safe direction.

Am I missing something here?

[inbox485]

So instruct me please. How does this LTL Home Defense work? According to the experts anyway.

You aim for abdomen, pull trigger, boomstick goes bang, recipient either assumes fetal position or gets really pissed off. I've never shot another person with the stuff, but I've seen videos, and have a friend that has been shot with one. He said it hurt a lot, but hell would freeze over before it would stop him if he was properly motivated.

I wake up to a noise at 3AM, walk down the hall with my shotgun, see some unrecognizable human shape in the living room and blast it with my rubber buckshot, then turn on the lights to see who it is?

Just me, but I won't keep a gun for HD that doesn't have a light that goes with it. But yeah that is the sort of thing I was alluding to with the anti-lock brakes comparison.

I am not well trained or very tactical but I have it firmly in mind that I'm not going to point a weapon at an unidentified someone, unless they're clearly trying to kill me first. I give up my advantage of surprise but I'm deeply committed to not killing someone who doesn't need it.

I can well imagine my daft Aunt Millie having another fight with her boyfriend, getting real drunk and trying to sneak into my house to sleep on my couch "cause I didn't want to wake you dear." Or some such unlikely scenario that can and does happen and then the Suburban Commando with an itchy trigger finger has taken an innocent life.

If I aim my weapon it is with the intent to kill. If I'm not sure then the muzzle is in a safe direction.

I'm with you there.

Am I missing something here?

Not that I can tell. The decision to use LL ammo has ups and downs. My life isn't going to change any if a random stranger on the internet disagrees with my balance of the pros and cons, chooses to use LL ammo and discovers the hard way that not everybody balls up on the floor like the promo videos when they get hit with a hornet's nest, and not everybody takes more than a second to return fire if they weren't firing already. I might consider keeping a few LL shells on a side saddle in case there ends up being a case where I could safely do a shell swap drill and make use of it, but off hand I can't think of a scenario in my house where that could happen.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

Thanks inbox485 you're a gentleman and a scholar!

[MossbergMan]

Thats a little over the top coming from someone who doesn't even live in California. I'll stand by my training and experience as a LEO, in California, and maintain that it is my opinion that less lethal in not appropriate for use by non-LEOs in California in a situation that merits the use of lethal force.

+1 here. I'm an LE trainer Firearms/ Use of Force instructor and a Chemical Weapons instructor (Pepperball and aerosol delivery systems) in CA.
and I'd never have a LEO, much less a non-LEO place LTL munitions in a live weapon with lethal munitions. First and foremost if "deadly force" is not required you are using the wrong weapons system. If deadly force is required you are using the wrong ammunition.
When LEO's employ LTL munitions it is in a special weapon and with separate deadly force back up. I don't know what school aippi went to, but where I went, mixing ammo (or putting LTL in a live weapon) was a major No Go. What's next, live ammo in LTL delivery systems???? According to aippi's logic that's okay.

I have been shot at with real bullets, I am no keyboard commando or mall ninja and I'm saying: Save the Less Than Lethal ammo for the Police.
If you are defending your life inside your home, use something you can count on. If you're putting down a less than civil demonstration or riot, that's when the LTL munitions shine.

After watching that...guy... reading about the Israelis (at least that's whom I think he was speaking of) using rubber bullets, blah, blah, blah he left out the important fact that all those with rubber rounds are backed up with real copper jacketed lead. So if one is not deterred from causing you harm, your buddies can dump him.

I don't see the advantage of losing one round in my magazine so I might save the life or limb of a scumbucket that was out to harm me or mine.

Your opinion is not wrong, it's your opinion. But there are some opinions that make better sense than others. At least that's how I see it from my from my experience.

[wyattearp]

With all of aippi's talk of "been there, done that, you don't know what you're talking about unless you have, those that have been there know what I'm talking about" monologue, I can only surmise he shot someone by mistake and now insists a less lethal be loaded first so we "unwashed" don't make the same stupid mistake he did. Come on aippi, fess up, why do we have to email you for your explanation? Put it out here so we can all be "enlightened".