HD use; less lethal options

[freonr22]

there is no reason to insult people with special needs!

[zoglog]

I expected the "if you're going to pull the trigger; blow him away" responses. I'll tell ya the truth, if I knew my government supported that, then yea, 8+1 is all lead.

The thinking here is I want to defend myself from getting hurt but not necessarily to take another human's life (even tho he/she is a scumbag for trying to attack me in the first place). While not taking a scumbag's life is important, it comes behind protecting myself physically and legally. I'm not talking about a whole tube full of beanbags or rubber 00, just the first round. Giving the burglar a chance to reflect on whether losing his life is worth it cuz the second round is less forgiving (surprise; only 1 chance). Unfortunately in CA, the likelihood is that I'm going to court and 1 round of less lethal could give me an edge (as well as the peace of mind of not worrying about that first round over penetrating). I'm thinking that rubber 00 or beanbags would give me enough time to ready the lead round and that gives the scumbag one chance to decide to live and not turn me into someone that has to live with the fact that I took a life and/or send me to prison for defending myself. The effect to the burglar is once is a mistake; twice is stupid (and in this case, likely fatal)

I live in a townhouse and most likely my shot would be away from neighbors but there are a few angles where a shot would have to go through (maybe) an inside wall, a external wall/slider, across a 4 car width street and another external wall. Is that enough travel and obstacles to drop 00 (lead) before it hits a neighbor ? I still see getting sued by a neighbor if it goes goes out of my house because I "almost killed them"; I see the news conference now ...

If the only way to keep my life is take another's life, then so be it. But I would sure like to plan on a low risk to me) option if it's available.

Agreed, personally I usually expect most burglars to be unarmed anyway and run away if they hear me pumping the forend..... I had this discussion w/ a co-worker who said he would go ninja on a burglar... I thought that was a bad idea unless he proved a threat.

What do you guys think of Birdshot for home defense? I'm guessing it's better since I live in an apartment and it won't go through the drywall.

[PEZHEAD265]

Who says that less then lethal rounds won't kill somebody??Didnt Bruce Lee's son get killed by a blank on a movie set.My home defense situation would be me standing between my wife on the phone and the door using my SG with 00 and #4 buck to stop anybody that comes in the doorway.I'm not going to give anybody a chance to harm us.Thinking that racking a SG is going to make somebody run in fear is a big misconception, sombody entered your home possibly armed knowing that you are home has a either a really big pair,stoned or just doesn't give a crap.I wouldn't count on it because he is there to do you harm.

[NSR500]

aippi, you're the biggest clown here.
You come into the discussion with name calling and ridicule for other members. You claim to be some authority on the matter, but do not care to post your information for public consumption.
In case you haven't noticed, the core behind the purpose of Calguns is to share information. That's how Californians were once again able to be educated on the matters of OLL ownership. If you're not here to play nice, then I suggest you keep your comments to yourself and your own damn website.

[BigDogatPlay]

And big dog you know better.

When you paint with a broad brush, you have to expect to get some paint on you.

That said, I think you've explained it sufficiently.

[FatalKitty]

less lethal is not, and was NEVER meant for self defense

it is a behavior modification ammo.

[inbox485]

your retarded if you use anything but lethal ammo in a hd situation. If you dont need lethal force, you should not be using your shotgun! You will be sued at best.


I live in a town house/complex as well and I have 5 slugs followed by 4 00buck shot mags in my shotgun! Don't be scared, just be prepared.

You do realize that most slugs tend to penetrate 25 - 30" in ballistic gel right? That will be good for a dirtbag, a couple walls and a few kids. Maybe even grandma. Using those indoors is about as smart as using .303 FMJ. Make sure a dirt bag will serve as the backstop for your HD rounds before you go using them. Unless of course you are using reduced power LE slugs designed to stop in the 12 - 14" range. Even then, the only time LE uses them is beyond their buckshot's B Zone. Not too many townhouses have a C Zone or beyond. Now if this wasn't CA, I'd advocate expanding AP slugs for rounds 3 and beyond.

[inbox485]

Who says that less then lethal rounds won't kill somebody??Didnt Bruce Lee's son get killed by a blank on a movie set.My home defense situation would be me standing between my wife on the phone and the door using my SG with 00 and #4 buck to stop anybody that comes in the doorway.I'm not going to give anybody a chance to harm us.Thinking that racking a SG is going to make somebody run in fear is a big misconception, sombody entered your home possibly armed knowing that you are home has a either a really big pair,stoned or just doesn't give a crap.I wouldn't count on it because he is there to do you harm.

Brandon Lee was killed by a blank fired through a gun that had a bullet in the barrel. Blanks can and have cause injuries, but not like that.

+1 on that second half. Anybody that breaks in while you are home has you and your loved ones factored into their plans. I don't advocate shooting to kill, but the faster the intruder is physically incapable of violence the better and that usually involves death. There are lots of stories of rapists/thrill killers/angry spouses/etc. getting shot with less than instantly potent stuff and figuring that as long as they are going to bleed out they might as well beat their victim to death first and they press the fight. If it won't serve as a virtual off switch, it has no business in your shotgun.

[inbox485]

Did not call anyone by name so get back unless you put yourself in that group but I see I said "Clowns on this web site" when I ment "some of the Clown".

Fair enough. My misunderstanding and my apologies. You do seem to use a number of generalities that seem out of line, but if you don't mean it that way, I'll take it at face value.

Every time this issue comes up I read the most ridiculous mess about it on this web site. Guys simply repeat some other mess that they read or someone told them. The OP needs both sides to decide. Search the site for other post on this topic and read that mess. If you don't sit there and shake your head after reading that stuff you may be one of the ones I was talking about.

I do shake my head a bit, and if you'll note, I have pointed to what are IMO some very limited advantages to LL ammo for HD. IMO it is better than birdshot but still ill advised.

Why are you guys not correcting guys for calling people retarded that don't agree with them. See the post above from eccvets. You want to get flip with me only because I don't agree with the mess you are trying to give the OP but ignor a member insulting the OP just because he agrees with you. Typical of this site. I also see guys come on here who seem to know their stuff and after a taste of this site they are history.

I thought about calling him on that, but decided to stick with pointing out the massive logical fallacy of using slugs indoors and left it at that. I don't agree with him.

I even posted on my web site that I use rubber 00 as the first load in my HD weapons but do not give the reasons. I tell the client to call me and I will explain as there are many reason to use this load as the first round. So this is not something new as I have been doing this for years.

My postings help guys make decisions about the Remington shotguns and other shotgun issues. This OP has a question and is getting bad advice. In fact he is getting ridiculous advice from people that have no concept of this issue. He can call me for some very good reasons to use this munition. He can then decide what is right for him and his situation.

By all means post the reasons. I just can't see how betting your life on pain compliance makes sense.

[FatalKitty]

You do realize that most slugs tend to penetrate 25 - 30" in ballistic gel right? That will be good for a dirtbag, a couple walls and a few kids. Maybe even grandma. Using those indoors is about as smart as using .303 FMJ. Make sure a dirt bag will serve as the backstop for your HD rounds before you go using them. Unless of course you are using reduced power LE slugs designed to stop in the 12 - 14" range. Even then, the only time LE uses them is beyond their buckshot's B Zone. Not too many townhouses have a C Zone or beyond. Now if this wasn't CA, I'd advocate expanding AP slugs for rounds 3 and beyond.

you do realize that nothing is certain, at that ballistics gel has nothing to do with reality, right?

it's simple, if grandma is standing behind the bad guy, don't take the shot. duh.

home defense is about more than just having a shotgun next to the nightstand.

[inbox485]

you do realize that nothing is certain, at that ballistics gel has nothing to do with reality, right?

it's simple, if grandma is standing behind the bad guy, don't take the shot. duh.

home defense is about more than just having a shotgun next to the nightstand.

Your kidding right? Ballistics gel is calibrated to be average penetration compared to human tissue. Obviously things like the sternum and hip bones can skew the results a little bit, but when you are using something in the 25 - 30" range, you are talking about a round that can go front to back through a bad guy, through multiple walls and still kill somebody else. That is irresponsible.

[Falstaff]

The police use LTL rounds with great effect. If you are not ready to take a life, I see this as a more than acceptable route to take. If you hit someone with a beanbag they will cease to be a threat for more than enough time for you to retreat. I have 2 sellier and bellot rubber buckshot rds. in my scattergun followed by the lead ones...

[The Original Godfather]

Yes LEO do use LTL, but they use LTL when they are not in a situation where it's just him/her or the assailant. for instance, LTL would be used in a riot situation where the LEO isnt personally targeted. also, ask yourself, "Do LEO get standard issued bean bags or rubber bullets for carry?"

however, when someone breaks in, theyre specifically targeting you and/or your family. why use LTL on someone who has specifically targeted you and your home for their crime?

less lethal is not, and was NEVER meant for self defense

it is a behavior modification ammo.

yup

[Hippo]

Just strap a high powered flashlight or laser onto the shotgun and that's your less than lethal round. If they don't get the message that being lit up results in kinetic induced trauma then your rubber rounds wouldn't have helped either. Plus the light/laser would aid in your aiming in the tense situation.

[Reductio]

It's not less-than-lethal, it's less-lethal: huge difference.