HD use; less lethal options

[aippi]

Inbox. I cleared up the clown comment to most guys satisfaction as the coment was ment as some of the clowns. And yes there are some on every web blog so no one should have been offended. Go bac

Where is all this knowledge you are sharing with us coming from? How old are you? Just curious as I put validity into time in grade and expeirience.

I am 57 and retired now except for my businesses. I did this real and I know this stuff. You started blasting my initial post and now are pissing back and forth with a guy that is still trying to get the sand out of his shorts from his time in the sand box.

I am thinking you are very young and well read and want to share knowledge with all of us. Thank you, but young man, which I think you are and I also think you are looking foolish now. I got a lot of mail about this post from guys that agree and want to know which munition to use. Most stated they will not even post an opinion on this topic due to the comments being made on this thread.

I was Certified by Def Tech Instructor in the '90 and have been using this munition as my first round in my personal HD shotgun for over 17 years. I have hundreds of clients out there who use it and many others who call about it from reading my web site and most all who I talk with indicate they are going to obtain some and have to option to use it.

So the topic is over as far as I am concerned. I am right in that this munition is an option for those who undersand it and the issues involved. For others it is not. Let it go now.

To all the guys, for the clown comment, again, it should have been "SOME OF THE CLOWNS" but hey, if the big floppy shoes fit put them on.

[joedogboy]

I figure that I have time to rack the 870 during target acquisition, if need be.



-- Michael

I think of the empty chamber as a plus, rather than a minus.

While some will disagree, I am a believer in the psychological impact of racking a slide.

I've used it a few times (shotgun and 1911), and have been there when it was used on other occasions, every time the behavior problems ceased as soon as the slide was racked. I would much rather not have to shoot anyone, and am glad that merely proving that the gun was loaded, and that I was prepared to use it was enough to get the job done.

[John Browning]

I hope they throw in a tactical dunce cap with every 10 beanbags or less-lethal rounds. If you think that a less-lethal round has a place in a defensive shotgun, you're out to lunch. Less-lethal rounds were designed to protect idiots/criminals from getting hurt. I have a good friend who is quite lucky he is a shotgun wizard and had lethal cover, because three bean bags (including one to the head) from his shotgun wasn't the best tool for the job according to him.

If you ask him, he'll tell you that he wishes he had a rifle. It makes no sense to handicap yourself out of the gate, unless you're wanting to remove yourself from the gene pool. Enough said.

[aippi]

Scobun - Dunce cap. No one said shoot three. The OP mentioned first round and that is an option for anyone who chooses to use it and that doesn't make them a dunce, it makes them smart. I don't agree with you? You don't agree with me. You are a senior member with 1,171 post. Why call the names, I said "Clowns " and was corrected so I am correcting you. I apologized, will you?

[E. Fudd]

As to bean bags rounds, aren't they potentially lethal at close range (ie. indoor distances), particularly if the target is hit in the head or heart (blunt trauma)?

I understood they were meant to be use by trained LEO's from a distance (10-15 yd.?) and only at stomachs or legs against individuals where lethal force is not justified...

I can also picture one aiming at the target's stomach, and as you fire, he/she suddenly ducks, crouches, or bends over, resulting in an upper torso/head hit...

[aippi]

I would never use a bean bag for the exact reasons you listed Fudd. I use 00 rubber buckshot as my first round. Good stuff, works.

[elSquid]

I think of the empty chamber as a plus, rather than a minus.

I figure that with an empty chamber that there is less of a chance of me putting a hole in a wall that I'd rather not.

While some will disagree, I am a believer in the psychological impact of racking a slide.

I'd agree. Although it won't dissuade the hardcore, I figure the 'average' intruder will take the hint.

-- Michael

[rugershooter]

I expected the "if you're going to pull the trigger; blow him away" responses. I'll tell ya the truth, if I knew my government supported that, then yea, 8+1 is all lead.

The thinking here is I want to defend myself from getting hurt but not necessarily to take another human's life (even tho he/she is a scumbag for trying to attack me in the first place). While not taking a scumbag's life is important, it comes behind protecting myself physically and legally. I'm not talking about a whole tube full of beanbags or rubber 00, just the first round. Giving the burglar a chance to reflect on whether losing his life is worth it cuz the second round is less forgiving (surprise; only 1 chance). Unfortunately in CA, the likelihood is that I'm going to court and 1 round of less lethal could give me an edge (as well as the peace of mind of not worrying about that first round over penetrating). I'm thinking that rubber 00 or beanbags would give me enough time to ready the lead round and that gives the scumbag one chance to decide to live and not turn me into someone that has to live with the fact that I took a life and/or send me to prison for defending myself. The effect to the burglar is once is a mistake; twice is stupid (and in this case, likely fatal)

I live in a townhouse and most likely my shot would be away from neighbors but there are a few angles where a shot would have to go through (maybe) an inside wall, a external wall/slider, across a 4 car width street and another external wall. Is that enough travel and obstacles to drop 00 (lead) before it hits a neighbor ? I still see getting sued by a neighbor if it goes goes out of my house because I "almost killed them"; I see the news conference now ...

If the only way to keep my life is take another's life, then so be it. But I would sure like to plan on a low risk to me) option if it's available.

While I understand that you want to reduce your liability, how long are you planning on waiting between the first and second shots? The commonly accepted methods of using deadly force (LEOs chime in here if I'm wrong), is to fire until the threat is no longer a threat. With lethal rounds, you keep firing until you see that he's physically torn up to the point where he's no longer a threat- dead or injured so bad he can't/won't do anything. If you only have one LL round and the rest of the mag lethal rounds, you'd have to wait a substantially longer before firing again (which would be a lethal round) to see the effects than you would with a lethal round because of the fact that you're counteracting the entire reason for having a LL round. Basically, fire at the guy and see what happens. If he stops then you don't fire. If he doesn't, you fire again, but you'd be using lethal rounds. You wouldn't stop to see what happens after the first shot if you were only using lethal rounds.
Personally, I wouldn't risk being killed because I shot the guy with a less lethal round and waited to see if it was effective only to find that it wasn't.

[John Browning]

Scobun - Dunce cap. No one said shoot three. The OP mentioned first round and that is an option for anyone who chooses to use it and that doesn't make them a dunce, it makes them smart. I don't agree with you? You don't agree with me. You are a senior member with 1,171 post. Why call the names, I said "Clowns " and was corrected so I am correcting you. I apologized, will you?

Obviously I don't think it is the smartest move to bring rubber bullets to a gunfight. If you want to do it, it is your funeral. I'm only using the tactical dunce cap as some figurative language, so if you took great offense I do apologize.

I'm just trying to point out, as many others have tried, that the benefits of using less-lethal stuff are only to be had by the felon who is set upon doing great bodily harm to you. He may not die, but he also may not stop. You might only get one shot, so you had better make it count. Your rubber buck is more likely to get you sued, hurt or killed than if you used what works. How is that a good thing?

In the end, all the justification for using rubber buck involves tremendous over-thinking of a scenario. It is the same crazy train of thought that leads to people alternating FMJ and JHP because they sayd "If the crazed drug dealing murder has a vest then on shot #5 they'll shoot him in the pelvis, and then #6 will be a FMJ to the brachial artery, blah, blah, blah." After real gunfights, people don't even know how many shots they fired. You get your sight picture and you pull the trigger. Muscle memory and training takes over as your brain takes a back seat. It is INSANE to think that you'll be calm and collected enough when your adrenaline is through the roof to think your way through a gunfight.

All the hooplah about overpenetration and missing your target can be rectified by training, practice, and planning. I have no doubts that I can make a shot at self defense distances with a shotgun, and I know where the fatal funnels are in my home that do not put innocent people in harms way. If I have to defend myself from great bodily harm, I'm going to use the best tool to stop the threat. There is no doubt that tool is buckshot, and it has been proven time and time again.

It is a free country and you're free to do whatever you want. I just hope anyone else who reads this thinks long and hard about the troofs of the internetz. Hell, I used to think birdshot was a decent HD load until I really researched it and tested it out.

If you do stop someone with a LL round and he lives, he's going to go out and find a new tool to rob you with...a lawyer. If you're justified in pulling the trigger, you aren't doing yourself any favors by handicapping the fight in your opponents favor. Only bad things happen as a result of what you're advocating during and after the fight...if you survive.

[-hanko]

Still feeding cats

Have a good weekend.

-hanko

[ricochet]

The evaluation of whether to take the second shot is the time to rack the slide & re-acquire the target. If the target doesn't have hands up (surrendering), is not on the ground or is not obviously turning tail (in other words, still a threat); the 2'nd one's a comin'. Remember, I took the 1'st shot when I decided to use lethal force. And, of course, I will be emptying the tube at all zombies and then grabbing my backup weapon.

I was really expecting more meaningful discussion (there have been several) vs the overly opinionated, name calling, bickering few that I've attracted with this post. We're all entitled to our opinions but when someone is "retarded" for not adopting the opinion of someone else, it's pretty immature (why the insults?). And to some; grow a skin and don' be so defensive (no pun intended :-)

For those truly interested in the reasons I'm considering (vs the peanut gallery that wants to pick 'em apart).

- LL 1'st round is a way of demonstrating to LEOs/a court, I tried not to kill him; I really did want to just stop him to protect myself (definition of self-defence, yeah?). Most courts think if you have a gun in the house, yer lyin' in wait for someone to innocently fall into your trap.

- LL 1'st round gives you that potential "mistake forgiveness".

- LL 1'st round gives you the over-penetration advantage (resolve situation in 1 shot and no projectiles leaving the premises).

- LL 1'st round may give you an edge in having your weapon(s) confiscated and hauled off to jail (especially if 1 shot made the fiend turn tail or maybe lie on the ground and wait for LEO's). I would think LEO's are more likely to leave you be (for the most part) if they pick up a breathing bad guy or run after him when you point in the direction he ran vs having to call the meat wagon).

- LL 1'st round gives you the potential advantage of not having the bad guy bleed out on your carpet ...

I'm hearing about synthetic 00 vs. rubber 00. Like a rubber ball, rubber 00 is going to retain energy (to reform and bounce) whereas synthetic will strike and flatten out similar to a spit wad to disperse all energy on the target. Contrary to popular belief, I do want to keep him away from me (no wife or kids in the scenario; I think those variables may require 100% lethal force). I haven't been able to find more info or a manufacture of synthetic 00.

ric

While I understand that you want to reduce your liability, how long are you planning on waiting between the first and second shots? The commonly accepted methods of using deadly force (LEOs chime in here if I'm wrong), is to fire until the threat is no longer a threat. With lethal rounds, you keep firing until you see that he's physically torn up to the point where he's no longer a threat- dead or injured so bad he can't/won't do anything. If you only have one LL round and the rest of the mag lethal rounds, you'd have to wait a substantially longer before firing again (which would be a lethal round) to see the effects than you would with a lethal round because of the fact that you're counteracting the entire reason for having a LL round. Basically, fire at the guy and see what happens. If he stops then you don't fire. If he doesn't, you fire again, but you'd be using lethal rounds. You wouldn't stop to see what happens after the first shot if you were only using lethal rounds.
Personally, I wouldn't risk being killed because I shot the guy with a less lethal round and waited to see if it was effective only to find that it wasn't.

[John Browning]

The evaluation of whether to take the second shot is the time to rack the slide & re-acquire the target. If the target doesn't have hands up (surrendering), is not on the ground or is not obviously turning tail (in other words, still a threat); the 2'nd one's a comin'. Remember, I took the 1'st shot when I decided to use lethal force. And, of course, I will be emptying the tube at all zombies and then grabbing my backup weapon.

I was really expecting more meaningful discussion (there have been several) vs the overly opinionated, name calling, bickering few that I've attracted with this post. We're all entitled to our opinions but when someone is "retarded" for not adopting the opinion of someone else, it's pretty immature (why the insults?). And to some; grow a skin and don' be so defensive (no pun intended :-)

For those truly interested in the reasons I'm considering (vs the peanut gallery that wants to pick 'em apart).

- LL 1'st round is a way of demonstrating to LEOs/a court, I tried not to kill him; I really did want to just stop him to protect myself (definition of self-defence, yeah?). Most courts think if you have a gun in the house, yer lyin' in wait for someone to innocently fall into your trap.

- LL 1'st round gives you that potential "mistake forgiveness".

- LL 1'st round gives you the over-penetration advantage (resolve situation in 1 shot and no projectiles leaving the premises).

- LL 1'st round may give you an edge in having your weapon(s) confiscated and hauled off to jail (especially if 1 shot made the fiend turn tail or maybe lie on the ground and wait for LEO's). I would think LEO's are more likely to leave you be (for the most part) if they pick up a breathing bad guy or run after him when you point in the direction he ran vs having to call the meat wagon).

- LL 1'st round gives you the potential advantage of not having the bad guy bleed out on your carpet ...

I'm hearing about synthetic 00 vs. rubber 00. Like a rubber ball, rubber 00 is going to retain energy (to reform and bounce) whereas synthetic will strike and flatten out similar to a spit wad to disperse all energy on the target. Contrary to popular belief, I do want to keep him away from me (no wife or kids in the scenario; I think those variables may require 100% lethal force). I haven't been able to find more info or a manufacture of synthetic 00.

ric

I'm sorry, but some opinions are so misinformed and irrational that there isn't much you can do without pointing out that the opinion is rediculous. The things you're basing your opinion on have no basis in fact.

From the things you've listed, you obviously are ignoring what many people here are saying. Namely, if you shoot someone with rubber buck, you will be treated in the EXACT same manner as if i shoot someone with 00 lead. You will go through the same criminal and civil process. In fact, it will almost certainly be more complicated. Except for your last point, everything else is contrived from a land of make believe. If it comes down to dying or re-carpeting, I'll gladly give Home Depot a call. I'm sorry, but that just is the way it is.

My only response at this point is to just throw up my hands and give a facepalm. I...just...can't...keep...feeding...cats...

[aippi]

Thank you Scobun. I appriciate the apology, but for me, I can't be offend as I have been married 4 times. I was asking for the apology for the OP and others who agree. You have some good points that I do not agree with, but are valid for some people. I have a skill level on par or close to about anyone on this site and the use of this munition for me as a first round is the best option. I am confident and capable to deal with any threat on my property. As for ammo, I also own a Detective Agency and Security Company. AI&P stands for Advocate Investigation & Protection. We have had very few protection details due to the area we are in. In two of those where shotguns were used there was no LL any where near the shotguns being used. SO YES PEOPLE, I USE REAL BULLITS. MY CC is a Colt Commander and my load for that is hot. Some guys responding with the marsmellow mess and other comments could not be more wrong about me or the other guys who commented that they use or would use this. They took one fact, our statements about LL and made a complete determination about us. As you did, Dunce, not sure, but I am definately not the sharpest tool in the pouch, so maybe about some things, but not about shotguns and how they are used, when to use them and how to surrvive. I also build some very good ones.

[joedogboy]

I'd agree. Although it won't dissuade the hardcore, I figure the 'average' intruder will take the hint.

While it is reasonable to assume that you may have to deal with an intruder in your home at some point in your life, some people here seem to think that they will be dealing with trained assassins, coming specifically to kill them.
I think it's more likely to be someone coming to take your stuff, and who only plans to harm you if it is easy for them (i.e. you are unarmed and unable to defend yourself).

Granted, against a hit team, racking the slide will give away your position - as will turning on a light - whether it is a lamp or a hand held or weapon mounted flashlight (unless you manage to catch them directly in the eyes as soon as you turn the extremely bright flashlight on). However, unless you are involved in some fairly shady business, having a team of assassins sent after you is an extremely low probability scenario. Most intruders are looking for cash, or things they can sell for cash - they may even be looking for victims that they can frighten and bully. They are not looking for a gun battle to the death.

[inbox485]

While it is reasonable to assume that you may have to deal with an intruder in your home at some point in your life, some people here seem to think that they will be dealing with trained assassins, coming specifically to kill them.
I think it's more likely to be someone coming to take your stuff, and who only plans to harm you if it is easy for them (i.e. you are unarmed and unable to defend yourself).

Granted, against a hit team, racking the slide will give away your position - as will turning on a light - whether it is a lamp or a hand held or weapon mounted flashlight (unless you manage to catch them directly in the eyes as soon as you turn the extremely bright flashlight on). However, unless you are involved in some fairly shady business, having a team of assassins sent after you is an extremely low probability scenario. Most intruders are looking for cash, or things they can sell for cash - they may even be looking for victims that they can frighten and bully. They are not looking for a gun battle to the death.

It has always been my opinion that if somebody breaks into your house just to steal stuff, they do it when nobody is home. So the converse is that if they break in while you are home you are some part of their plans, and you probably won't enjoy it. That is why I just presume that if somebody breaks in while I'm home, the intruder is their to do me harm.