HD use; less lethal options

[BigDogatPlay]

+1 here. I'm an LE trainer Firearms/ Use of Force instructor and a Chemical Weapons instructor (Pepperball and aerosol delivery systems) in CA.
and I'd never have a LEO, much less a non-LEO place LTL munitions in a live weapon with lethal munitions. First and foremost if "deadly force" is not required you are using the wrong weapons system. If deadly force is required you are using the wrong ammunition.

Thanks for the props and +1 right back at you... very well said. Emphasis added is mine.

I have been shot at with real bullets, I am no keyboard commando or mall ninja and I'm saying: Save the Less Than Lethal ammo for the Police.
If you are defending your life inside your home, use something you can count on. If you're putting down... a less than civil demonstration or riot, that's when the LTL munitions shine.

Agree 100%... particularly of having been fired on myself with the real deal on the street.

Your opinion is not wrong, it's your opinion. But there are some opinions that make better sense than others. At least that's how I see it from my from my experience.

Again.... well said.

[inbox485]

+1 here. I'm an LE trainer Firearms/ Use of Force instructor and a Chemical Weapons instructor (Pepperball and aerosol delivery systems) in CA.
and I'd never have a LEO, much less a non-LEO place LTL munitions in a live weapon with lethal munitions. First and foremost if "deadly force" is not required you are using the wrong weapons system. If deadly force is required you are using the wrong ammunition.
When LEO's employ LTL munitions it is in a special weapon and with separate deadly force back up. I don't know what school aippi went to, but where I went, mixing ammo (or putting LTL in a live weapon) was a major No Go. What's next, live ammo in LTL delivery systems???? According to aippi's logic that's okay.

That was another issue I had with LL ammo, that I didn't really expand on. It seems as though aippi thinks front loading a LL round gives you a guilt free first shot. I'm against that mentality to the point that I really wish 12 gauge LL sytems would be redesigned to not be interchangeable without swapping out the bolt. Something to the effect of electronic ignition so that a standard firing pin would have no effect on the LL round and the electronic charge would have no effect on the primer of a lethal round.

I have been shot at with real bullets, I am no keyboard commando or mall ninja and I'm saying: Save the Less Than Lethal ammo for the Police.
If you are defending your life inside your home, use something you can count on. If you're putting down a less than civil demonstration or riot, that's when the LTL munitions shine.

Not something I mention often, but I've been held at gun point once, shot at from long range on another occasion, and had my back to a closed door with a half circle of gangbangers with pipe wrenches surrounding me on yet another occasion. Of all the things I gleefully would have traded my left nut for, less lethal ammo was not on the list.

[joedogboy]

So instruct me please. How does this LTL Home Defense work? According to the experts anyway.

I wake up to a noise at 3AM, walk down the hall with my shotgun, see some unrecognizable human shape in the living room and blast it with my rubber buckshot, then turn on the lights to see who it is?

What if you blast that unrecognizable human shape, and as they collapse, you recognize "Aunt Millie's" voice? You can't take back the shot, but can now only pray that it wasn't fatal.

I am not well trained or very tactical but I have it firmly in mind that I'm not going to point a weapon at an unidentified someone, unless they're clearly trying to kill me first. I give up my advantage of surprise but I'm deeply committed to not killing someone who doesn't need it.

Whether or not you are pointing it at a specific target, when we "tense up" it can include applying unconscious tension to our trigger fingers. This can result in an unintentional discharge - with the weapon pointed at the still unidentified target, or towards the wall to your kids' bedroom.

I can well imagine my daft Aunt Millie having another fight with her boyfriend, getting real drunk and trying to sneak into my house to sleep on my couch "cause I didn't want to wake you dear." Or some such unlikely scenario that can and does happen and then the Suburban Commando with an itchy trigger finger has taken an innocent life.

Very possible in many households. It could also be your neighbor, coming home drunk and accidentally entering the door to the wrong apartment, which you forgot to lock.

If I aim my weapon it is with the intent to kill. If I'm not sure then the muzzle is in a safe direction.

Is there really an absolutely safe direction if you live in an apartment/condo with neighbors on all sides?

Am I missing something here?

Using less lethal doesn't require a diminished standard - the same standards apply for any HD shooting. What it does is give your target (whether that target is intentional or unintentional) a chance to take a temporarily incapacitating blow, rather than a hit that is likely to be lethal.

While you may or may not care about collateral damage to others in your HD scenarios, you should ponder on the fact that, when you sleepily grope around in the dark for your loaded shotgun, there is always the chance that the first round may unintentionally go off in your own direction.

[joedogboy]

It seems as though aippi thinks front loading a LL round gives you a guilt free first shot.

I don't think it's so much "guilt free" as the ability to possibly recover from a mistake that would otherwise ruin your life.

Although the munition is "less" lethal, it is still a "use of lethal force" situation when you fire it.

[inbox485]

I don't think it's so much "guilt free" as the ability to possibly recover from a mistake that would otherwise ruin your life.

Although the munition is "less" lethal, it is still a "use of lethal force" situation when you fire it.

To be perfectly blunt, it is a safety net for the types that clear their house every time the cat knocks something over and shoot at shadows and noises. I've never seen a single example of a home owner mistakenly shooting an innocent person thinking it was a home invader that didn't involve a negligent failure to ID the target. Learning the importance of having a light that goes with an HD firearm and being committed to the concept that you don't shoot until you are certain of your target even if that puts you at a disadvantage will go a lot further than front loading an LL round and wasting the first shot if you really do need to defend yourself. If shooting anything isn't an option until you are certain what you are shooting at and that your shot will be contained by the target, having LL ammo is a waste of a first shot.

To address the concern of being in an apartment surrounded on all sides by other residents, I would ask any of the LEO's on the thread what they would have in a shotgun if they had to go into an apartment such as the one described where evacuating the surrounding residents is not an option. I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing it would be 00 Buck.

[bombadillo]

If I were going to use the less than lethal approach, I would get a good can of pepper spray and a baseball bat follow up shot. Any way you look at it, you're not looking at a good situation and cops carry 3 forms of debilitating weapons on them and sometimes 4 if you look at their belts. Often they start out with pepper spray or a taser, ASP/Monodnock club of some sort, then to the firearm. I would really just say that for HD, you're best off going with a good firearm and some quality training, or if you have to use the less than lethal route, get a dog and some Fox Labs pepper spray. I was just searching it out and 2.5oz is the legal limitations of spray in California. Good luck whatever your decision may be.

[elSquid]

While you may or may not care about collateral damage to others in your HD scenarios, you should ponder on the fact that, when you sleepily grope around in the dark for your loaded shotgun, there is always the chance that the first round may unintentionally go off in your own direction.

That's unlikely if the chamber is empty.

-- Michael

[BigDogatPlay]

To address the concern of being in an apartment surrounded on all sides by other residents, I would ask any of the LEO's on the thread what they would have in a shotgun if they had to go into an apartment such as the one described where evacuating the surrounding residents is not an option. I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing it would be 00 Buck.

That's a fair question. From a LEO perspective I can't see where inside an apartment at the close quarters that would be involved that most types of shotgun deployed LL I am familiar with (many but by no means all) would be a good solution. I'd be more inclined to deploy a Taser in that scenario. With a deadly force option deployed right behind it if resources on the scene allow for it.

If the situation dictates that I have to go in with a shotgun in that scenario, it likely wouldn't be with the orange one I'd wager.

[Johnny.B.Good]

+1

There have been any number of threads on using less lethal and I am always left to wonder just why it keeps coming up. Why does the OP want to use a less lethal round in the first place? What is the thought process behind that?

If a bad guy looking to score, an out of control duster lashing out or even a rhetorical zombie enters your home with the intent to do you and your family harm, you will be in a fight for your life. When the stakes are that high, why fuss with anything short of the real deal?

Less lethal has a place in law enforcement to control combative or non-compliant suspects in arrest situations. I don't believe it has a place in the toolkit of force options for a non-LEO to defend themselves and their families in the gravest extreme.

+1

Well said.

I would like to understand the thought process behind equipping a home defense firearm with "less lethal" rounds.

[inbox485]

That's unlikely if the chamber is empty.

-- Michael

I keep my shotgun either chambered on a bed rack, or road loaded in the safe. Chambered guns don't go in the safe in case of fire.

[CDMJ]

To be perfectly blunt, it is a safety net for the types that clear their house every time the cat knocks something over and shoot at shadows and noises.

Do you have any facts to back up that bold, broad stroke to just painted there. Lets be clear, you are saying that the people that use LL rounds are the paranoid types that jump out of bed and clear their house every time they hear a bump in the night. That LL rounds are only for the paranoid types. Is that what I am reading coming from you? Is that your argument?

Before I chime in here I want to note that I run low recoil 00 buck in my go to gun. Also, since I have no children I have no interest in clearing my house ALONE against an unknown number of people. My plan is to stay put and barricade the hallway leading to the bedroom where my wife and I are while she calls the police. Now that we have gotten that bit out of the way let me start by saying, inbox your post was ignorant and condescending. Things can go wrong in a fight. Lights do break. Batteries die. People freeze up. People panic and panic fire. Unless you have been in a fight before and know how you will react all you can do is train for it, hope and guess how you will do. Inbox, you are assuming everything will work smooth as buttermilk and who knows if you are ever in a fight it might very well go down like that. I truly hope it does. However I know Mr Murphy has a way of raising his little ugly head and making a bad situation even worse by complicating things. One thing you said in your post was right. LL rounds are in some way safety nets. Even though they are capable of killing they also give you a way of saying "do over!" if by some chance you get it wrong and shoot someone you did not intend to.

My opinion on this subject has always been load what you want. Do I think some loads are unacceptable for home defense? Yes. But LL rounds are not one of them. Every individual is different, with different living situations. Each of us have to find a round that best fits our living situation and our individual abilities. This isn't to say that LL rounds are for newbies. I am saying simply that to each is their own. We can spend weeks going round and round trying to convince one another that the other one is wrong. What I am saying is it doesn't matter. Loading an LL round for that first shot is not the end of the world. If that shot is fired and the guy turns out to be a bad guy you follow up with a second shot, this time with the good stuff. The user of the LL has to understand the risks involved with using and LL round. Just like the user of 00 buck for a first round has to understand the risk involved with using that load, how they must be 100% clear with their target identification. The bottom line is both rounds have their pros and their cons. The end user has to take responsibility and understand those pros and cons.

[joedogboy]

That's unlikely if the chamber is empty.

-- Michael

Since many people here violently oppose the idea of keeping an empty chamber on a home defense gun, because they may "lose the tactical advantage of surprise" when they rack the slide to chamber the first round, I don't think that the empty chamber safety feature is going to work for them.

[inbox485]

Do you have any facts to back up that bold, broad stroke to just painted there. Lets be clear, you are saying that the people that use LL rounds are the paranoid types that jump out of bed and clear their house every time they hear a bump in the night. That LL rounds are only for the paranoid types. Is that what I am reading coming from you? Is that your argument?

Before I chime in here I want to note that I run low recoil 00 buck in my go to gun. Also, since I have no children I have no interest in clearing my house ALONE against an unknown number of people. My plan is to stay put and barricade the hallway leading to the bedroom where my wife and I are while she calls the police. Now that we have gotten that bit out of the way let me start by saying, inbox your post was ignorant and condescending. Things can go wrong in a fight. Lights do break. Batteries die. People freeze up. People panic and panic fire. Unless you have been in a fight before and know how you will react all you can do is train for it, hope and guess how you will do. Inbox, you are assuming everything will work smooth as buttermilk and who knows if you are ever in a fight it might very well go down like that. I truly hope it does. However I know Mr Murphy has a way of raising his little ugly head and making a bad situation even worse by complicating things. One thing you said in your post was right. LL rounds are in some way safety nets. Even though they are capable of killing they also give you a way of saying "do over!" if by some chance you get it wrong and shoot someone you did not intend to.

My opinion on this subject has always been load what you want. Do I think some loads are unacceptable for home defense? Yes. But LL rounds are not one of them. Every individual is different, with different living situations. Each of us have to find a round that best fits our living situation and our individual abilities. This isn't to say that LL rounds are for newbies. I am saying simply that to each is their own. We can spend weeks going round and round trying to convince one another that the other one is wrong. What I am saying is it doesn't matter. Loading an LL round for that first shot is not the end of the world. If that shot is fired and the guy turns out to be a bad guy you follow up with a second shot, this time with the good stuff. The user of the LL has to understand the risks involved with using and LL round. Just like the user of 00 buck for a first round has to understand the risk involved with using that load, how they must be 100% clear with their target identification. The bottom line is both rounds have their pros and their cons. The end user has to take responsibility and understand those pros and cons.

You are reading too much into it. In terms of the burden of certainty a shooter has before shooting I really don't care what is loaded in a shotgun. You have to assume the worst will happen any time you fail to keep 100% of a shot fully contained by a backstop. The lesser mentioned benefit to long guns in HD is the ease of aiming compared to handguns. 80 year old grandmothers don't miss at indoor ranges. So while you do have to aim, the only real challenge is being sure of your target and keeping your bugger picker off the bang switch until you are 100% certain. Too often people say, well just in case I miss or I shoot and it turns out to be a loved one I'll use a bean bag round for at least the first shot. Completely putting aside the efficacy issues with trying to use LL ammo to stop an assailant, that is the totally wrong attitude. The responsible attitude is no matter what I load in my gun, what comes out might kill whoever it happens to hit, so even if it adds to my risk, I won't even put my finger on the trigger until I'm 100% certain that it is the right thing to do. Not just 99%, but 100%. The only real reason I can think of that people would weigh the pros and cons and decide to use LL ammo, is they are not committed to being 100% sure of any shot they might take before they take it. If that is ignorant and condescending, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that is my opinion. If you decide here and now that you will die before you take a shot you aren't sure of, there is no reason to load anything short of ammo known to reliably drop people cold.

So yes there are people that you just can't convince that birdshot won't truly incapacitate reliably, and there are people that you just can't convince that you can use an intruder as a backstop and be confident that every pellet coming out of your gun will be stopped by the bad guy, and there are people you can't convince that not only is it not wrong to kill another human being if they are trying to cause great bodily harm to you or your loved ones, but it is arguably wrong not to. For these people, LL ammo might give them the confidence to not freeze up. It might convince them to save the birdshot for clay and practice. But in the end it is a safety net and in many ways a false safety net. As a rule safety nets breed complacency and in the case of LL ammo, while they are not without merit, the safety net is outweighed by the complacency. Add back into the equation the efficacy issues, and it should be clear why on one hand I will recognize the benefits of LL rounds, I really think they are a bad idea all things considered.

Also, as I've stated before, I don't really care what people finally choose to put in their shotguns. The OP asked for opinions and opinions were given. If somebody breaks into his house, I won't be there. If he survives, I'm sure it will be a great story a year or two latter when all the legal issues are cleared up. If he dies and suddenly stops posting, I won't even notice unless one of his loved ones decides to post it and I happen to see it. So, the OP and anybody else considering the topic has to weigh their options, make their choice and either live or die with it if they ever have to put their choice to the test. I will say that if anybody breaks into my house while I'm home and I have time to get to my shotgun, they are leaving with 9 - 18 00 pellets in their chest and quite possibly another 9 in their head.

[elSquid]

Since many people here violently oppose the idea of keeping an empty chamber on a home defense gun, because they may "lose the tactical advantage of surprise" when they rack the slide to chamber the first round, I don't think that the empty chamber safety feature is going to work for them.

I figure that I have time to rack the 870 during target acquisition, if need be.



-- Michael

[CDMJ]

I will say that if anybody breaks into my house while I'm home and I have time to get to my shotgun, they are leaving with 9 - 18 00 pellets in their chest and quite possibly another 9 in their head.

YEAH! Because that's how Chuck would do it. Who cares if it is overkill. Besides it will look great on the Call of Duty kill cam montage video when you upload it to youtube.