HD use; less lethal options

[inbox485]

YEAH! Because that's how Chuck would do it. Who cares if it is overkill. Besides it will look great on the Call of Duty kill cam montage video when you upload it to youtube.

Right. So if I shoot once (that's 9 pellets in case that was the confusion), and there isn't an immediate effect, I should twiddle my thumbs? You can if you want, but so long as the target continues to present a threat, I'd go ahead and take that second shot. And if for some reason that still isn't getting the desired effect, the head is a tried and proven off switch for varmint of all sizes. But if that is too Chuck Norris for you, you can twiddle away with those thumbs. Like I said before, I won't be there, probably won't ever know about it, and therefore don't really care.

[aippi]

Anyone can have their weapon taken from them and used on them. Anyone who does not realize this is a fool... In Dade county Florida, in a two year period four officers were executed with thier own weapons. With that said, having a fighting chance is not a bad idea. Think about the implications of this. Would knowing that the chambered round is LL give you a fighting chance should you become the convinced the perp is going to start shooting. We are talking about a home owner checking something out in the night, not an LEO confronting and armed incident. Are you trained in weapon retention like the LEO's are? Yet, they still have their weapons taken and are killed with them. Do you even understand what the issues are? I don't think some of the people postin here do. Tuff talk about shooting them down and shooting them in the head shows me a lot about the undestanding of all this that someone may have. This subject is serious. It goes beyond you, the weapon and using it. It goes to being able to deal with all the veriables. All of them. The ones that come up during and the ones that come up after. Anything that gives you a wider ranges of options and may negate or lessen the impact of your mistakes is a good thing.

I think anyone who explores all the options out there that can enhance his ability to be effective in defending himself and his family is a very wise person. That same man looks at all the issues involved with something this serious and considers the ones that will assure sucess and the best outcome.

The foolish man does not. He, well just read some of the postings on here.

As for posting all the reasons for this online. Because there are clowns that will pick this apart, as is happening with about any statement on any gun blog about anything and where some of you can say what you want, I have to consider my liability insurance and my business. I am in this professionally with three million in liabity insurance. I can tell a client or someone asking something and explain it and make sure he is clear in on it by asking questions. I can not do that on here. These sites bring out a prarade of fools who bravely print all kinds of mess that would not do this when speaking one on one with me. I find they will state their opinions, I state mine and we can agree to disagree as once we are speaking to each other like men we both tend to give more respect. Not on one of these sites. And to the guys that thinks I shot someone by mistake, yes I have used my weapon in the line of duty and never wrong in the doing of it. PM me if you have a question like that and I will answer it to you personally. You make this personal by sugesting I may have done something and do in on an open forum. Not cool dude.

[CDMJ]

Right. So if I shoot once (that's 9 pellets in case that was the confusion), and there isn't an immediate effect, I should twiddle my thumbs?

Let's be clear you didn't say shoot once and see what happens. You said:

I will say that if anybody breaks into my house while I'm home and I have time to get to my shotgun, they are leaving with 9 - 18 00 pellets in their chest and quite possibly another 9 in their head.

Let's also remember your condescending remark that basically equates that LL rounds are for people that are paranoid who shoot at sounds and shadows. Lets review that little gem:

To be perfectly blunt, it is a safety net for the types that clear their house every time the cat knocks something over and shoot at shadows and noises.

You call people who use LL rounds paranoid and yet at the same time you just talked about performing a Mozambique drill with a shotgun loaded with 00 buck on an intruder. So I have to ask, who is the paranoid one here? If you are going to make a statement about why someone shouldn't use something at least have a little more substance to your argument other than unicorn farts and stupid action hero examples.

[inbox485]

Let's be clear you didn't say shoot once and see what happens. You said:

There are 9 00 pellets in a standard 2.75" shell. I thought that was common knowledge. My bad.

Let's also remember your condescending remark that basically equates that LL rounds are for people that are paranoid who shoot at sounds and shadows. Lets review that little gem:

You call people who use LL rounds paranoid and yet at the same time you just talked about performing a Mozambique drill with a shotgun loaded with 00 buck on an intruder.

Mozambique drill implies that you take all three shots irregardless if the first shot would have been sufficient to incapacitate them with the intention being that death is insured. I never advocated doing that. Again you are reading too much into things I'm not saying. I did however advocate shooting once to the chest with the intention to shoot a second time if needed and if still not effective to take a third shot to the head. Entire volumes can be written about why that makes sense, but it is getting a bit off topic.

So I have to ask, who is the paranoid one here? If you are going to make a statement about why someone shouldn't use something at least have a little more substance to your argument other than unicorn farts and stupid action hero examples.

Knowing that shooting somebody doesn't cause instant incapacitation and knowing that dieing people can still kill isn't paranoid. Come to think of it, the only person to bring up paranoia here was you.

[CDMJ]

The shells can be loaded with eight or nine pellets, but you said you were going hit them with 9-18 00 pellets. Is that not two shots? Then you said maybe one to the head. Also your definition of a Mozambique drill is a little off but we will save that for another time.

Anyways, you still have no answered my question so I will ask it again for the second time. Do you have any facts to back up this statement implies that people who use LL rounds are paranoid types that need a safety net?

To be perfectly blunt, it is a safety net for the types that clear their house every time the cat knocks something over and shoot at shadows and noises.

You know, charts, graphs, time lines. Maybe something you cooked up in MS paint. How about a youtube video? Anything other than your make believe facts and bravado. I will wait.

[inbox485]

Anyone can have their weapon taken from them and used on them. Anyone who does not realize this is a fool... In Dade county Florida, in a two year period four officers were executed with thier own weapons. With that said, having a fighting chance is not a bad idea. Think about the implications of this. Would knowing that the chambered round is LL give you a fighting chance should you become the convinced the perp is going to start shooting. We are talking about a home owner checking something out in the night, not an LEO confronting and armed incident. Are you trained in weapon retention like the LEO's are?

Shooting an intruder and trying to wrestle with a violent suspect with a gun in an open holster while you try to get him in handcuffs and he tries to kill you are not really comparable. One would think that you of all people would know better.

Do you even understand what the issues are? I don't think some of the people postin here do.

Yup anybody that doesn't agree with you including a number of LEO's including at least one less lethal force instructor that I noted clearly has no clue what they are talking about.

Tuff talk about shooting them down and shooting them in the head shows me a lot about the undestanding of all this that someone may have.

Not sure who said that other than you just now. So I believe the phrase is quote it or cram it.

The foolish man does not. He, well just read some of the postings on here.

Yup. Because weighing the pros and cons and deciding not to agree with you makes them a fool.

These sites bring out a prarade of fools who bravely print all kinds of mess that would not do this when speaking one on one with me. ...once we are speaking to each other like men we both tend to give more respect. Not on one of these sites.

Your opening remark here was pretty insulting and it has been downhill from there. If it wasn't for your profession, I would have long ago written you off as a troll.

[whipkiller]

your retarded if you use anything but lethal ammo in a hd situation. If you dont need lethal force, you should not be using your shotgun! You will be sued at best.


I live in a town house/complex as well and I have 5 slugs followed by 4 00buck shot mags in my shotgun! Don't be scared, just be prepared.

Don't get mad, but that's funny right there! You might want to have someone proof-read your post if you're going to be telling people they're retarded.

[inbox485]

The shells can be loaded with eight or nine pellets, but you said you were going hit them with 9-18 00 pellets. Is that not two shots? Then you said maybe one to the head. Also your definition of a Mozambique drill is a little off but we will save that for another time.

All right. I'll break this down nice and slow. Standard 12 gauge 00 Buck loads in 2.75" shells have 9 pellets. 8 pellet loads are generally reduced recoil loads.

I said 9 - 18 pellets. 9 pellets would be 1 shot. 18 pellets would be 2 shots. If I was implying that I would automatically shoot twice, I would have just said 18 pellets. I did not say that. I said 9 -18 which means there is a first shot with a possibility of a second shot.

Then I said possibly another 9 pellets in the head. Again, not automatically, just possibly. How on earth do you manage to run a gear shop and have difficulty following that?

Anyways, you still have no answered my question so I will ask it again for the second time. Do you have any facts to back up this statement implies that people who use LL rounds are paranoid types that need a safety net?

You know, charts, graphs, time lines. Maybe something you cooked up in MS paint. How about a youtube video? Anything other than your make believe facts and bravado. I will wait.

I never said or implied that they were paranoid types. The implication was that the same mentality that would lead one to choose LL ammo just in case they make a mistake is the same mentality that makes them reckless. I wasn't making up facts, just stating an opinion. If you are wondering where that opinion comes from, just look at the reasons given by those that advocate it. If you don't like that opinion you don't have to agree with it. Works out great that way.

[inbox485]

Don't get mad, but that's funny right there! You might want to have someone proof-read your post if you're going to be telling people they're retarded.

This forum is pretty cell phone friendly, so with a lot of cell phone posts, I wouldn't get too wrapped up over spelling. But yeah, it is funny to catch people calling other people more-ons on the internet.

[inbox485]

Also your definition of a Mozambique drill is a little off but we will save that for another time.

From wikipedia:

The Mozambique Drill, also known as the Failure to Stop Drill, or Failure Drill, is a close-quarter shooting technique in which the shooter fires twice into the torso of a target (known as a double tap to the center of mass) momentarily assesses the hits, then follows them up with a carefully aimed shot to the head of the target.

The third shot should be aimed to destroy the brain or, for a more immediate effect, the brain stem, killing the target and preventing the target from retaliating. The drill was added to the modern technique of gunfighting by Jeff Cooper based on the experience of one of his students, Mike Rousseau, while on duty in Mozambique. Rousseau was later killed in action in the Rhodesian War.

--------------------------------

So, while you seem to think I suggested automatically shooting shooting twice then following up to the head ala Mozambique, in reality I suggested taking 1 shot with the possibility of up to 2 additional shots if needed.

[CDMJ]

All right. I'll break this down nice and slow. Standard 12 gauge 00 Buck loads in 2.75" shells have 9 pellets. 8 pellet loads are generally reduced recoil loads.

I said 9 - 18 pellets. 9 pellets would be 1 shot. 18 pellets would be 2 shots. If I was implying that I would automatically shoot twice, I would have just said 18 pellets. I did not say that. I said 9 -18 which means there is a first shot with a possibility of a second shot.

Then I said possibly another 9 pellets in the head. Again, not automatically, just possibly. How on earth do you manage to run a gear shop and have difficulty following that?

See now you are making your self look like a jerk. Earlier you hinted that if it wasn't for JD's company you would consider him a troll. What does that make you? By the way I am curious. Since "STANDARD" (can anyone show me where I buy standard shells at?), 2.75'' shells have nine pellets and low recoil shells are the ones that are loaded with eight pellets, according to you. What is the length of the low recoil shell? The way you word your post makes it sound like maybe the low recoil shell must be a different length. Could you please tell me, you seem so comfortable giving out information, incorrect or otherwise I am interesting in knowing you're response.

Tell you what. Never mind. I have a night out with the wife tonight and I do not feel like sitting here watching you piss into the wind any longer. I am going to help you out high-speed. The reason I work with Scott at CDM Gear is because I know my stuff. Because I do not sit around all day dreaming about popping bad guys and talking about what I might do to them when I get the chance. Buckshot, both low recoil and full power loads can come in both eight pellet and nine pellet configuration. Simply put it is not as simple as eight pellets equal low recoil and nine pellets equal full power (which by the way is the word you were looking for, full power not standard load).

Examples.

Here is some NINE PELLET low recoil rounds. By the way note the length of the low recoil shells high speed.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-hornady-le-tap-low-recoil-9-pellet-oo-buckshot/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

Here are some EIGHT PELLET full power rounds.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-hornady-le-tap-full-power-8-pellet-oo-buckshot/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

ETA: Don't pull your tactical information from Wiki. I never met a high speed operator with a Wiki patch on his shoulder.

[inbox485]

See now you are making your self look like a jerk. Earlier you hinted that if it wasn't for JD's company you would consider him a troll.

It wasn't a hint. I came out and said it. The first thing out of the hopper from that guy was calling people clowns. Then it was the tirades about people that don't know what they are talking about despite LEO's that train LL ammo use. Then a few more calling of fools and clowns... at this point it all runs together.

What does that make you?

I guess that makes me the fool for responding to nonsense.

By the way I am curious. Since "STANDARD" (can anyone show me where I buy standard shells at?), 2.75'' shells have nine pellets and low recoil shells are the ones that are loaded with eight pellets, according to you. What is the length of the low recoil shell? The way you word your post makes it sound like maybe the low recoil shell must be a different length. Could you please tell me, you seem so comfortable giving out information, incorrect or otherwise I am interesting in knowing you're response.

Tell you what. Never mind. I have a night out with the wife tonight and I do not feel like sitting here watching you piss into the wind any longer. I am going to help you out high-speed. The reason I work with Scott at CDM Gear is because I know my stuff. Because I do not sit around all day dreaming about popping bad guys and talking about what I might do to them when I get the chance. Buckshot, both low recoil and full power loads can come in both eight pellet and nine pellet configuration. Simply put it is not as simple as eight pellets equal low recoil and nine pellets equal full power (which by the way is the word you were looking for, full power not standard load).

Examples.

Here is some NINE PELLET low recoil rounds. By the way note the length of the low recoil shells high speed.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-hornady-le-tap-low-recoil-9-pellet-oo-buckshot/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

Here are some EIGHT PELLET full power rounds.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-hornady-le-tap-full-power-8-pellet-oo-buckshot/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

ETA: Don't pull your tactical information from Wiki. I never met a high speed operator with a Wiki patch on his shoulder.

Wow. That was quite the tirade. While you are catching your breath, I'll say that seeing as the majority of 2.75" shells on the market that are simply 00 Buck (not LE, reduced recoil, full power etc) are 9 pellet, calling them standard isn't off in left field. You want to specify full power because some companies use that in their marketing, fine. I don't really care. I've never looked too much into reduced recoil loads, but the ones I've seen were also 2.75". Not sure how that is relevant, but there you go. The rest of your tirade sounds a bit reflective and compensatory, so I'll leave it at that.

As for the wiki wise crack, are you disagreeing with that description, or are you just trying to be insulting?

[CDMJ]

That sounds about right. You regurgitate info you read on the internet without fully understanding it, condescend when someone disagrees with your self proclaimed "facts" or cut and pasted knowledge that is sometimes out dated or incorrect. Then you insult, you deflect and then bail. I had an interesting link sent to me today that shows just such an episode that hashed out. Where you went toe to toe with people that again know what they are talking about. When you didn't get your way you bailed. Since this does relate to the topic in a way I will post it.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958&start=120

[inbox485]

That sounds about right. You regurgitate info you read on the internet without fully understanding it, condescend when someone disagrees with your self proclaimed "facts" or cut and pasted knowledge that is sometimes out dated or incorrect. Then you insult, you deflect and then bail. I had an interesting link sent to me today that shows just such an episode that hashed out. Where you went toe to toe with people that again know what they are talking about. When you didn't get your way you bailed. Since this does relate to the topic in a way I will post it.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...9958&start=120

Right.... speaking of deflection, insults and bailing...

I stand by what I said there and here, and yes when the discussion went from something as basic as saying #4 buck is generally considered a minimum for HD into the mundane and then just plain stupid, I bailed. Given the way you take things out of context, you'd fit in pretty well there.

[tacticalcity]

Boy did this thread get ugly.