Complete Lower issue...

[Joe]

Dirty Harry, you really should at least try to convince them. We want our FFL's to know and understand the law. Allowing them to return the lower without putting up an argument for its legality will reinforce their incorrect beliefs.

[Dirty_Harry]

Dirty Harry, you really should at least try to convince them. We want our FFL's to know and understand the law. Allowing them to return the lower without putting up an argument for its legality will reinforce their incorrect beliefs.

True Joe, I should. And as a member of Calguns, they should be knowledgeable of the legalities/rules/whatever of an AW (which I'm sure they do), I shouldn't be the one telling them why it's not an AW.

[arsilva32]

its just complete BS to make a threat to turn over the legal reciever to the PD.as far as not telling them first about recieving the piece ,thats there business. you are paying for a service they offer, not getting a favor from a friend that normaly would not do such a thing. its just assinine! i would not spend any of my money there,unless they had a damn good excuse, like it was a new guy that did not know the laws regarding transfers.

[gatesbox]

Evil features only apply to centerfire rifles. This is not a centerfire rifle. Lets say he has a .22lr upper on one of his complete lowers at home. If he removes the upper to clean the rifle does that automatically make the complete lower an assault weapon? No. Without an upper it is not a centerfire rifle.

J&R is in the wrong and is spreading FUD.

A complete lower is a long rifle with two evil features.....it is neither a rim fire or a Centerfire, but it is still a long rifle....f you don't see the grey area here than I am worried....I agree J&R could have either been more polite, or quietly installed the BB, but they are not wrong by any means...they should have just returned the lower.

[jrsportssupply]

What we received from Riflegear is a completed lower receiver, marked 5.56 mm, with a parts kit and collapsible stock installed. According to our contacts in DOJ and ATF, this is a rilfe. Since it has the normal magazine release, it is an assault weapon.

I received my CA assault weapons permit 3 weeks ago, after a year-long process, and it is very clear what I can and cannot do. I am being held to a higher standard because of that permit. My only options are to transfer that weapon to another assault weapons dealer, or sell it to an authorized party. If you are reading this Riflegear, please send me a copy of your AW permit so that I can return the rifle to you.

Regardless of what people may have heard from other sources, in my conversations with the DOJ, and specifically with the DOJ AW people, what I received was an assault weapon. I am not willing to jeapordize my livelyhood based on rumors or innuendo. If that makes me a bad guy in your eyes, so be it.

Those that have dealt with us in the past know that we do our best to provide outstanding customer service, and we will continue to do so. Asking us to put our business at risk is just going too far.

Randy Collins

PS some of you may recall when the ATF changed the form 4473 to add a third category - receiver - to the type of firearm being transferred. Due to ATF regulations, many of us discovered that we could not sell stripped lower receivers to those between the ages of 18 & 21, because they were not specifically long guns or shotguns. That's when we found that by completing the lower receiver build, the ATF classified the receiver as a rifle, and we could then sell it to those between 18 & 21. If that was true then, what has changed? Certainly not the ATF regulations nor the CA laws in this regard. If anyone can point me to the section of the CFR that has changed, I will certainly read it and take it up with ATF & DOJ.

[Us3rName]

Still. By being only a lower reciever. How is it an assualt weapon? Its not even a weapon on its own... since when is half a rifle a complete rifle?

[Eljay]

I think the argument is that without an upper it might legally be a rifle but not a centerfire rifle and in theory would be OK. Still, I can see why J&R wouldn't want to be the test case on that, especially with it being marked 5.56 and especially since nobody asked them first. Any retailer's going to have comfort limits with this stuff and it's one thing to be an Internet desk jockey and another thing to risk the business on it.

[mrvash]

What we received from Riflegear is a completed lower receiver, marked 5.56 mm, with a parts kit and collapsible stock installed. According to our contacts in DOJ and ATF, this is a rilfe. Since it has the normal magazine release, it is an assault weapon.

I received my CA assault weapons permit 3 weeks ago, after a year-long process, and it is very clear what I can and cannot do. I am being held to a higher standard because of that permit. My only options are to transfer that weapon to another assault weapons dealer, or sell it to an authorized party. If you are reading this Riflegear, please send me a copy of your AW permit so that I can return the rifle to you.

Regardless of what people may have heard from other sources, in my conversations with the DOJ, and specifically with the DOJ AW people, what I received was an assault weapon. I am not willing to jeapordize my livelyhood based on rumors or innuendo. If that makes me a bad guy in your eyes, so be it.

Those that have dealt with us in the past know that we do our best to provide outstanding customer service, and we will continue to do so. Asking us to put our business at risk is just going too far.

Randy Collins

PS some of you may recall when the ATF changed the form 4473 to add a third category - receiver - to the type of firearm being transferred. Due to ATF regulations, many of us discovered that we could not sell stripped lower receivers to those between the ages of 18 & 21, because they were not specifically long guns or shotguns. That's when we found that by completing the lower receiver build, the ATF classified the receiver as a rifle, and we could then sell it to those between 18 & 21. If that was true then, what has changed? Certainly not the ATF regulations nor the CA laws in this regard. If anyone can point me to the section of the CFR that has changed, I will certainly read it and take it up with ATF & DOJ.

The complete lower you speak of, is not an assault weapon. It needs to be attached to an upper that is center-fired. Your contacts from the Department of Justice and ATF are either lying to you or clueless themselves. According to your logic, if I were to remove the magazine from a bullet-button AR rifle I would be creating an assault weapon because it has the "capacity" to accept a detachable magazine (which is not illegal, by the way.) It is not "rumored" as you mentioned, the PC clearly stats that an assault rifle has be center-fired and also contain one the following: pistol grip; telescopic stock; grenade launcher; thumbhole stock etc. Since the lower you have in your possession is not attached to an upper it is not an assault weapon.

Also, if the complete lower IS considered as a rifle, than it would still be okay since it is not center-fired on it's own. If you are that worried about it I'm sure the buyer would not mind paying a bit of extra money on top his transfer and DROS fees for someone in your business to install the bullet-button that Riflegear sent with the lower or just simply remove the "evil" features. I'm not doubting myself, but if somehow I am wrong about all of this, then great, I learned something new pertaining to our wacky state laws and have a better understanding.

I know that you're just going to blow off this post and possibly other posts that you read in this thread and I do understand your concern, I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business, but you're just making this harder than it needs to be. Good luck to the both of you and Riflegear.

[gatesbox]

The complete lower you speak of, is not an assault weapon. It needs to be attached to an upper that is center-fired. Your contacts from the Department of Justice and ATF are either lying to you or clueless themselves. According to your logic, if I were to remove the magazine from a bullet-button AR rifle I would be creating an assault weapon because it has the "capacity" to accept a detachable magazine (which is not illegal, by the way.) It is not "rumored" as you mentioned, the PC clearly stats that an assault rifle has be center-fired and also contain one the following: pistol grip; telescopic stock; grenade launcher; thumbhole stock etc. Since the lower you have in your possession is not attached to an upper it is not an assault weapon.

Also, if the complete lower IS considered as a rifle, than it would still be okay since it is not center-fired on it's own. If you are that worried about it I'm sure the buyer would not mind paying a bit of extra money on top his transfer and DROS fees for someone in your business to install the bullet-button that Riflegear sent with the lower or just simply remove the "evil" features. I'm not doubting myself, but if somehow I am wrong about all of this, then great, I learned something new pertaining to our wacky state laws and have a better understanding.

I know that you're just going to blow off this post and possibly other posts that you read in this thread and I do understand your concern, I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business, but you're just making this harder than it needs to be. Good luck to the both of you and Riflegear.

This has FAIL written all over it.....you indeed DROS a rifle or a Pistol, you don't DROS parts....so it is either a rifle or a pistol, period....J&R gave a fine explanation of their Perspective.....they have every right to hold what may be disputed but is a perfectly valid stance for their business, if you are an FFL please offer your services, have J&R transfer the weapon to you, you install the BB and do the DROS for the OP.....otherwise you are just spewing nonsense and it is not your but on the line....there are still plenty of FFLs that won't even touch a black rifle unless it is a permanent dedicated rimfire, the law is complicated and you can't fault anyone for insisting that you have your ducks in a row.....next it will be Range officers that are jerks because they tell you to leave when you leave your BB tool attached to a featured AR...

Knowledge is power ignorance is a felony......

[r6raff]

This has FAIL written all over it.....you indeed DROS a rifle or a Pistol, you don't DROS parts....so it is either a rifle or a pistol, period....J&R gave a fine explanation of their Perspective.....they have every right to hold what may be disputed but is a perfectly valid stance for their business, if you are an FFL please offer your services, have J&R transfer the weapon to you, you install the BB and do the DROS for the OP.....otherwise you are just spewing nonsense and it is not your but on the line....there are still plenty of FFLs that won't even touch a black rifle unless it is a permanent dedicated rimfire, the law is complicated and you can't fault anyone for insisting that you have your ducks in a row.....next it will be Range officers that are jerks because they tell you to leave when you leave your BB tool attached to a featured AR...

Knowledge is power ignorance is a felony......

Like said over and over and over and over... A complete lower with no upper installed can indeed be considered a rifle, however without a centerfire upper it does not meet the characteristics that would deem it an assault weapon. I guess by your reasoning every time someone takes their .22 upper off their lower to clean it, they are in fact commiting a felony.

Show me one single conviction where the defendant was charges with an AW possession based off a featured bb-less lower alone... guess what, there aren't any... why, because a lower without a centerfire upper can not be an AW (Save for the lowers on the ban list of course)

Continue to spread your fud, people who have a mind of their own can clearly see that you are wrong. But if you want to err on the side of caution be my guess, just don't going spewing your mis-information here. Maybe one day all this crap will be moot, but until then we need to continue to exercise our rights and be knowledgeable in the laws and what we can and can not do.

I don't blame JSE one bit in not doing something they feel may jeopardize their business, I am a business owner myself so I understand completely. What I don't agree with is the way they handled the situation, I think they could have worked with the OP rather than giving him an ultimatum and a silly timeline

[mrvash]

This has FAIL written all over it.....you indeed DROS a rifle or a Pistol, you don't DROS parts....so it is either a rifle or a pistol, period....J&R gave a fine explanation of their Perspective.....they have every right to hold what may be disputed but is a perfectly valid stance for their business, if you are an FFL please offer your services, have J&R transfer the weapon to you, you install the BB and do the DROS for the OP.....otherwise you are just spewing nonsense and it is not your but on the line....there are still plenty of FFLs that won't even touch a black rifle unless it is a permanent dedicated rimfire, the law is complicated and you can't fault anyone for insisting that you have your ducks in a row.....next it will be Range officers that are jerks because they tell you to leave when you leave your BB tool attached to a featured AR...

Knowledge is power ignorance is a felony......

I'm not giving J&R any heartache for not doing the transfer of the lower to the buyer, in which I told the representative of J&R here in my previous post I understand his concern.

It is quite obvious on where you stand on this topic, so I'll bluntly state that I am not here to debate you or anyone else, but if the lower is considered as a rifle, then why can't someone under the age of 21 purchase one? And in regards of my previous having "fail" all over it, you are implying that a complete lower in itself with "evil" features and without a bullet-button is classified as an assault weapon even though it is not attached to a center-fire upper?

I can safely assume how you would read this post as coming off hostile and may sound debatable, but I'm simply just asking questions to clear some of my views.

[gatesbox]

Almost all the replies here are proving my exact point, that it can not be surmised that the issue of OLLs and AWs are a slam dunk definition. Here's my basic argument broken down, and I don't think anyone is hostile, I just don't understand the perceived wrong doing by the FFL.
1. A lower receiver is Purchased and DROSed as either a pistol or a rifle correct?
2. If 1 is true then when buying this receiver as a rifle, with a complete lower the "rifle" in question has a pistol grip and an adjustable stock with a detachable magazine.

Can we agree we are now in some murky water? The next question is this rifle a rimfire rifle? No it is not. This is not a slam dunk which is why pretending it is is the real FUD. Did the OP order a .22lr attached? I didn't hear that, in fact his purchase of a BB might be evidence of the intent to configure the rifle as a featured centerfire AR.
What is left on the rifle to indicate if it is a rimfire? Is the reciever stamped?

We know from the original post that this was the intent.....my point is basically do it right or don't do it at all, I am also amazed that Rifle Gear or whoever the vendor was did not cover their costomers okole by taking the 30 seconds it would have taken to install the BB before sending to another CA FFL..... When I brought my AR lower into the state the BB was already installed. It would be smart for CA online vendors to do the same, I'm sure most out of state vendors would not sell a lower to a CA resident without the BB installed.....stripped lowers are easier since they do not yet have any features....

[CK_32]

No upper. It's a STAG complete lower. I didn't see it in the Appendix list on the flowchart

After reading this I think your ffl is a anti AR friendly shop. I have a ton of these near me... Look around for a AR friendly shop because most shops think all ARs are evil and illegal...

Pure ignorance... Reason they don't get my business anymore.

[paladin4415]

If they would just install the bullet button that I read was sent with it, all this crap would be moot.

[gatesbox]

I guess by your reasoning every time someone takes their .22 upper off their lower to clean it, they are in fact commiting a felony.

What you do to your weapon after you purchase it has a whole different standard than that necessary for purchase, you can buy off roster pistols that have been modified as single shot and then do what ever you want after the purchase. But the standard for purchase is much more stringent....

if you take your featured .22 AR and remove the upper to attach a 5.56 upper are you going to install the BB before or after you attach the 5.56 upper. I hope your answer is the former.