AFG considered a vertical grip?

[ke6guj]

The infamous letter every one is referring to, my disclaimer is that no where in this letter is california or it's laws even mentioned and it is being written from the the east coast. If this letter had asked about the AFG pertaining to CA law then it would be golden but it does not. Also as stated above just because the ATF said it wasn't doesn't mean the DOJ doesn't, so until both can agreed that it is not a VFG than I would not put it on a featureless rifle or an AK/AR pistol.

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...NzdhMzUx&hl=en

since ATF says it is federall legal to have an AFG on an AR-pistol, what would be your concern with CA law on a CA-legal AR-pistol. With the mag-lock you could have an AFG or VFG (with an AOW stamp) and not be in violation of CA law.

[pyro3k2]

since ATF says it is federall legal to have an AFG on an AR-pistol, what would be your concern with CA law on a CA-legal AR-pistol. With the mag-lock you could have an AFG or VFG (with an AOW stamp) and not be in violation of CA law.

While this makes sense to us, I would not like to be the test subject to push this through the court system. Only reason why I would not personally do so. The time and money that it takes would just not be worth it considering on an AR/AK pistol you could always just be like everyone else and grab the damn thing by the mag.

[ke6guj]

what would be the test case here? CA could say that an AFG was "a second handgrip" was was an evil feature, but that AR-pistol already has multiple evil features already, threaded barrel, barrel shroud, etc. What's one more?

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

but, since it doesn't a detachable magazine, per CA law, it can have all the evil features you want.

[247Nino]

Kinda thread jacking but on my normal evil feature ar I have a afg and vfg with BB this legal?

LOL yea show us a pic

my friend did the same thing. LOOKS STUPID FUNNY

[pyro3k2]

what would be the test case here? CA could say that an AFG was "a second handgrip" was was an evil feature, but that AR-pistol already has multiple evil features already, threaded barrel, barrel shroud, etc. What's one more?



but, since it doesn't a detachable magazine, per CA law, it can have all the evil features you want.

As stated above, my understanding of the law and what is legal is up to speed. My problem being, is without a court case or some major ripple the average LEO or anyone with the power to make my life very difficult isn't going to know that this is indeed legal without taking me to court. How many firearms people are still thinking the 1994 AWB rules still apply? Or are even up to speed on the OLL movement. How many arrests did it take before the OLL was widely accepted? This is still very new to the shooting world, if you are willing to go through the legal song and dance then by all means put one on your featureless rifle/ AR/AKpistol. I don't know about you but I dont have a large sum of money and time I can devote to fighting this in court. Even if this is an open and shut case that is still a good chunk of change. Until the CA DOJ has approved this it is very much in the gray area and the end user must understand they could potentially be a test subject for CA AOW charges even if they are in the right.
-or-
Just grab it by the magwell like it was before the AFG.

[Reductio]

You're confusing the issue.... it's questionable on a featureless build, that I know, and there will NOT be one on my featureless AR. HOWEVER, the pistol is an entirely different thing. The AFG falls into the same category as a threaded barrel on a pistol: legal if you have a maglocked pistol. ATF would be the one to question about the legalities, and they've already said that the AFG =/= pistol grip, so you don't have to worry about AOW status. It's not a gray area at all: if you have an AR pistol, did you remove the treading on your barrel?

If you're waiting for DOJ approval, don't hold your breath: if you haven't noticed, the bullet button isn't even approved. They don't need to: it follows the law.

[ke6guj]

As stated above, my understanding of the law and what is legal is up to speed. My problem being, is without a court case or some major ripple the average LEO or anyone with the power to make my life very difficult isn't going to know that this is indeed legal without taking me to court. How many firearms people are still thinking the 1994 AWB rules still apply? Or are even up to speed on the OLL movement. How many arrests did it take before the OLL was widely accepted? This is still very new to the shooting world, if you are willing to go through the legal song and dance then by all means put one on your featureless rifle/ AR/AKpistol. I don't know about you but I dont have a large sum of money and time I can devote to fighting this in court. Even if this is an open and shut case that is still a good chunk of change. Until the CA DOJ has approved this it is very much in the gray area and the end user must understand they could potentially be a test subject for CA AOW charges even if they are in the right.

you're entitled to your opinion, and the decision on how close to the edge you want to get is entirely up to you. just trying to figure out why you would thinkg an AFG is more cutting edge than the threaded barrel and barrel shroud that just about every CA-legal AR-pistol has.

And what would be this CA AOW charge? CA has no definition of AOW and no prohibition against them, except for pen guns.

[Write Winger]

I think everyone is getting federal law and California law mixed up... as well as every freaking thing being abbreviated.

Simplest terms: Federal law states that you cannot have a vertical forward grip on your pistol. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, otherwise known as the BATFE, has stated that the ANGLED forward grip is not a vertical forward grip and is ok to put on your pistol.

California law: you cannot have a detachable magazine and any kind of forward grip on a pistol or rifle. They only mention forward grip, not angled or vertical. If your magazine is locked by a Bullet Button, then it is ok to put an angled forward grip on your pistol, and an angled or vertical forward grip on your rifle.

Clear?

[MrPlink]

California law: you cannot have a detachable magazine and any kind of forward grip on a pistol or rifle. They only mention forward grip, not angled or vertical. If your magazine is locked by a Bullet Button, then it is ok to put an angled forward grip on your pistol, and an angled or vertical forward grip on your rifle.

Clear?

I really dont want to fan the flames on this again, but I think you need to re-read the PC. Thats not how it is worded

[Write Winger]

Ah, a forward PISTOL grip. So only if it looks like a Tommy Gun forward grip, lol.

We always have to keep in mind these laws were written by ppl who know nothing about guns.

[Fate]

You're confusing the issue.... it's questionable on a featureless build, that I know, and there will NOT be one on my featureless AR. HOWEVER, the pistol is an entirely different thing. The AFG falls into the same category as a threaded barrel on a pistol: legal if you have a maglocked pistol. ATF would be the one to question about the legalities, and they've already said that the AFG =/= pistol grip, so you don't have to worry about AOW status. It's not a gray area at all: if you have an AR pistol, did you remove the treading on your barrel?

If you're waiting for DOJ approval, don't hold your breath: if you haven't noticed, the bullet button isn't even approved. They don't need to: it follows the law.

Bingo.

On a bullet buttoned AR pistol, AFG is good to go. On a featureless rifle, because of the legal definition of what can be considered a "forward pistol grip," there are possible issues. It is a grip and a pistol style grasp is possible by grabbing the entire grip. Those two things allow it to meet the definition in the penal code of a forward pistol grip. And thus the problem on a featureless build.

[Rekrab]

Ah, a forward PISTOL grip. So only if it looks like a Tommy Gun forward grip, lol.

We always have to keep in mind these laws were written by ppl who know nothing about guns.

We should also keep in mind that this has famously worked in our favor. If they had known anything about firearms, we wouldn't have BBs and Maglocks.

[Write Winger]

Yup, just following the WORD of the law.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

[pyro3k2]

You're confusing the issue.... it's questionable on a featureless build, that I know, and there will NOT be one on my featureless AR. HOWEVER, the pistol is an entirely different thing. The AFG falls into the same category as a threaded barrel on a pistol: legal if you have a maglocked pistol. ATF would be the one to question about the legalities, and they've already said that the AFG =/= pistol grip, so you don't have to worry about AOW status. It's not a gray area at all: if you have an AR pistol, did you remove the treading on your barrel?

If you're waiting for DOJ approval, don't hold your breath: if you haven't noticed, the bullet button isn't even approved. They don't need to: it follows the law.

Like I said before it's not my understanding thats the issue it's the understanding of the people hwo enforce the law that concerns me.

you're entitled to your opinion, and the decision on how close to the edge you want to get is entirely up to you. just trying to figure out why you would thinkg an AFG is more cutting edge than the threaded barrel and barrel shroud that just about every CA-legal AR-pistol has.

And what would be this CA AOW charge? CA has no definition of AOW and no prohibition against them, except for pen guns.

Even if the AOW charges aren't triggered

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

it's even in the flow chart way before the detachable mag part of the flow chart. ANd don't think for a second in this state a lawyer could not convince 12 people than an AR/AK series of pistols aren't concentional and the addition of said AFG would only make it easier. But as you said above this is only my opinion and decision on how close to the edge I would like to be.