Hollow Points vs. Drywall

[bass_blaster]

HOLY CRAP!!!

IraqVet is like 75lb lighter in that video.

That's a different guy. IraqVet was behind the camera. The other dude was Chad I think.

[xxxx]

Seriously, no one should listen to the majority of what is stated in this thread. It is simple psychics. If you shoot a modern day bullet, even a .22 at dry wall there's a good chance it will penetrate. The whole XM193 will fragment when hitting drywall is silly. If it does fragment then you have a bunch of smaller pieces of metal (denser than drywall) moving very fast though the drywall. If you think there is a magic bullet that hurt a human but not go though dry wall you should not be allowed to own a firearm.

And no one wants to be shot with bird shot, and that could also go though dry wall. Just a bunch of really stupid stuff mentioned here and bad advice.

http://youtu.be/BgWzgP5Pdjg - that's a BB gun using CO2 going though dry wall at 450fps with much less mass than firearm projectiles.

[drunktank]

12ga with birdshot wont put any intruder down, thats forsure

I have several Batallion Chief uncles who've seen plenty of birdshot victims in the last 30 years that will say otherwise. Dead is dead (especially in apartments and/or tight living quarters). I don't care how much better my 00-buck rounds are against soft tissue, but birdshot (especially bigger bird shot), WILL stop 2-legged critters in close quarters, given normal circumstances.

OP, I'm sure this has been mentioned, but you have to consider this. If you're life and/or your family's life were on the line, your priority is survival even if it means a bullet penetrating the wall beyond you. Take care of the immediate threat at hand.

[44fred]

You are right. Dead is dead with bird shot. Self inflicted bird shot wounds can be lethal. Using it for self defense is a huge gamble, do your homework.
Eventually dieing from a wound is not the same as stopping the threat ASAP.
Throwing out information without the particulars doesn't tell us anything. With your logic, a 25acp is all that's needed. Hopefully your attacker will eventually stop. Really?

"Several" batallion chief uncles? Really? How many is several?
Tell us there experiences.

[Lead Waster]

Every time I have the opportunity to respond to this type of thread, the answer to my question is always the same. NO ANSWER!

Give me statistics on legal gun owners using any gun legally in a self defense situation, inside a house, apartment or whatever that injures or kills innocents due to missing the bad guy or blowing through the bad guy. Of course intentional shootings at mistaken innocents would have to be thrown out. Ex: Shooting a family member you did not expect to be home etc. I'm very specific with my question, innocents behind walls.
Let's see the numbers.
As responsible gun owners, we tend to worry about things that really don't effect the situation. Am I saying just start spraying? Of course not. Let's be reasonable.
Low recoil 00 9 pellet buckshot will do the job if you do your part.

I have no stats to offer, but what comes to mind are all the drive-by-shootings that happen where people inside their houses are hit by bullets going through stucco, brick, windows, etc.

Lots of stories about idiot "cleaning their gun when it went off" and the bullet going through the floor/ceiling/wall and hitting someone else.

People missing intended targets and hitting someone else in the other room? I don't know, but it's not an improbable situation.

[baddos]

You should also consider who the person you are likely going to be targeting in a HD situtation. Chances are they are likely going to be young and possibly on drugs. It's much better to put someone high on speed down with a well placed bullet than birdshot from my perspective. It's also important to remember that statistically speaking, you'll never have to find out.

[POLICESTATE]

I have no stats to offer, but what comes to mind are all the drive-by-shootings that happen where people inside their houses are hit by bullets going through stucco, brick, windows, etc.

Lots of stories about idiot "cleaning their gun when it went off" and the bullet going through the floor/ceiling/wall and hitting someone else.

People missing intended targets and hitting someone else in the other room? I don't know, but it's not an improbable situation.

There is a big difference between trying to hit your target, spraying bullets in the hopes you hit your target, and having a negligent discharge where the barrel could be pointed in just about any direction at the time it occurs.

[drunktank]

You are right. Dead is dead with bird shot. Self inflicted bird shot wounds can be lethal. Using it for self defense is a huge gamble, do your homework.
Eventually dieing from a wound is not the same as stopping the threat ASAP.
Throwing out information without the particulars doesn't tell us anything. With your logic, a 25acp is all that's needed. Hopefully your attacker will eventually stop. Really?

"Several" ba tallied chief uncles? Really? How many is several?
Tell us there experiences.

I have done my homework, thank you. Never did I say or imply you should use it over buck shot. However, I was referring one's comment of how "birdshot was useless". Hell, another Calgunner here just mentioned how he effectively used birdshot on someone...

Several meaning 2. One retired from LA County, the other active and living in San Bernardino County. More than just a handful of calls from gunfights, home defense, suicides, accidents, etc. If you charge someone and get hit from 5-10' away with birdshot, it's not the same as from a .25, no matter how much of a tough guy you think you are, so quit ASSuming.

[drunktank]

You should also consider who the person you are likely going to be targeting in a HD situtation. Chances are they are likely going to be young and possibly on drugs. It's much better to put someone high on speed down with a well placed bullet than birdshot from my perspective. It's also important to remember that statistically speaking, you'll never have to find out.

Well put. Even though birdshot can penetrate deeply in close range, it's not as reliable as using a more effective round overall.

[18Dmedic]

i wont post again in this thread. you people are irritating.


anyways,

...we know how effective most civilians are under the stress of a home defense shooting. Don't make me laugh. Most of you will shake so bad, you will hit everything except the hostile party. And the rest will just stand there or hide without doing anything. others will be shot with their own firearm. and yet others will do what some here posted and make us all look bad and make way for more feel good laws that don't work.

Common sense guys...please.

[L84CABO]

Since I've actually used it to put a person(s) down before, I'll respectfully disagree. please feel free to present us with your expert opinion. You know, the kind you gain through actual experience.

The only way you wont put a guy down in a 10x10 room with birdshot is if you're aiming in the opposite direction from the threat. lol

You're missing the point. Will birdshot put a person down? MAYBE. Honestly, that is the most accurate and truthful answer about birdshot. Anyone who says differently is being ignorant or dishonest.

Will 00 Buck put a person down? Again...Maybe. Again...honest answer. But the odds are far better with Buck than Bird. The fact that you put a person down with birdshot is completely irrelevant. It worked this time. It may not next time. The same would hold true for Buck. But again, the odds are going to be far better with Buck.

I have lots of problems with using birdshot as a defensive round. In the right conditions it works. Maybe. But the opportunity for the conditions to be wrong are too great, IMO, to bet my life on.

What if the fight spills over outside and you're no longer in a 10x10 room? What if my attacker has decided to wear a motor cycle helmet and leather jacket? What if I actually do need to take a shot through a wall? What if I need to go to the aid of my neighbor or I need to take a shot from my porch out into the street or something? What if the attacker is hopped up on drugs? What if, what if, what if?

I make no judgments on an informed individual's decision to use Birdshot. If that's what a person chooses, who am I to tell them different.

What I do make judgments on are people who come onto a public forum and tout or advise the use of birdshot without explaining the limitations/risks of using the round. It's completely irresponsible. The possibility of a new shooter seeing the advice and using it without understanding it's limitations is too great.

[SoCalEnthusiast]

I still want to hear about the story.

So would you take a shot of bird shot if your standing, lets say 25 feet away, butt naked, face turned away? Would that leave marks at least? welts?

[pastureofmuppets]

i wont post again in this thread. you people are irritating.


anyways,

...we know how effective most civilians are under the stress of a home defense shooting. Don't make me laugh. Most of you will shake so bad, you will hit everything except the hostile party. And the rest will just stand there or hide without doing anything. others will be shot with their own firearm. and yet others will do what some here posted and make us all look bad and make way for more feel good laws that don't work.

Common sense guys...please.

You forgot about the bowels emptying and the puking and PTSD afterwords.


You know what though? Plenty of civilians defend themselves without training throughout the course of a year with firearms and ammunition none of us would dream of recommending. In my town a few months ago, a woman defended herself with a throwing axe when she awoke to someone trying to take her watch off while she was in bed.

I am not advocating no training, people with firearms kept for self defense should have professional training and practice regularly what they have been taught. I believe that is part of the responsibility, and too many people consider standing at a range shooting a hole in a static target is enough.

Anyway, my point is all of this is nonsense, everything we choose is a compromise. Otherwise we would be wearing body armor 24/7 with a range of AR's in immediate reach. Handguns and shotguns are very much sub optimal self defense weapons whatever the load or calibre is.

[L84CABO]

In my town a few months ago, a woman defended herself with a throwing axe when she awoke to someone trying to take her watch off while she was in bed.

That's awesome! Haaaaasan CHOP!

[taifei]

With the laws in CA, I wouldn't be surprised if you end up getting sued by the BG who survived the birdshot wounds.