1911 Reliability: Myths vs Facts

[missiontrails]

I'm a bit confused as to why you are choosing to argue this point, as I generally agree with everything else you stated in your original post.

Would you not agree, that this +/- 20% that we are discussing, or perhaps even 5%, is indeed an increase in accuracy, if only a small percentage?

Have you ever shot a 1911 from a rest that had such tight slide/frame, and barrel/bushing fitment that it would not cycle? Have you checked the accuracy on such a gun(s), and measured that accuracy as it changes over time? Does your 30,000 round 1911 shoot as accurately as your brand new one? Do you find that the longer you own a 1911, the less reliable it becomes? You've never heard of a barrel bushing cracking on a 1911?

You mentioned "repeatability in mechanical accuracy", but isn't that exactly what we are talking about, when we call a gun accurate? Especially for folks shooting outside of a lab, a gun is accurate when the POI can be repeated for several shots.

I would submit to you, that the overall mean potential of accuracy in a 1911, is absolutely related to tight fitment of barrel/bushing, barrel hood/frame fitment, and slide/frame fitment. This in turn is absolutely, and directly tied to reliability. 1911's that are fit "stupid tight", or some would say "not fit", are indeed not reliable. They malfunction, and can experience a higher rate of failure due to increased stress on components. Throw in environment variables like debris, temperature changes, overly viscous lubricants etc. and they absolutely can and will have issues functioning properly. The mean failure/malfunction rate over a period of time is exponentially increased.

As I stated before, this is why manufacturers like Wilson, Brown, etc. seek to find a balance. They fit a 1911 "right", no break-in required. Tight enough to be "accurate" within specific distances, but reliable in terms of fitting-related malfunctions. Loose enough tolerances to operate with some amount of debris introduced into the working surfaces of the machine. This is also why Les Baer (especially on his 1.5" guaranteed guns) requires a minimum break in on a new gun, and they are more accurate from the bench than a Wilson or a Brown.

It's no secret, that machines built to lower tolerances are often far more 'reliable' and resistant to malfunction due to environmental factors than ultra high precision designs. Precision increases efficiency, which in this case results in higher "accuracy". It also means that when you throw crud into the equation, the machine can fail. This is why if you change your oil every 3,000 miles in your honda, it will last 300k miles. It's also why our recently rebuilt 1964 Corvette apparently ran 85k original miles (during rebuild mechanic discovered this when rebuilding the engine) with a factory Friday lug someone accidentally dropped into the cylinder (embedded into the cylinder wall over time) without an appreciable loss in horsepower.

I'm really not sure why you chose to argue a point without providing any specific data. I'm confident that my original statement is indeed correct. If you disagree, feel free to educate me on this subject. It would be great if you could provide specific examples to show exactly how manufacturing tolerances (tightness/looseness of parts fitment) does not directly affect the accuracy potential, and reliability potential of a 1911.

For the purposes of your explanation, let's go ahead and rule out the common culprits (ammunition, recoil spring strength/slide weight ratio, extractor setup, magazine design). I'm really looking forward to learning something new about the 1911.

Thanks,

-Freq

Right on the money. Exactly why I won't waste my time with a enthusiast grade 1911, because I'm not shooting in contests or from the bench looking for bragging rights from a $2500 gun that shoots 1.5" sandbag groups. Futthermore, all the more reason I'm not interested in a "looser" built 1911 either, because mechanical accuracy isn't going to eclipse a modern design .45ACP pistol. Neat technology and all, and great history behind them, but the design is OLD, heavy, and has single stack low amount of firepower..... plus SAO with no 100% safe way to quickly uncock a hammer on a live round. Still the best trigger though.

[Fishslayer]

Not sure about the grown part.

"Older but not up..."

[bulletblood]

Right on the money. Exactly why I won't waste my time with a enthusiast grade 1911, because I'm not shooting in contests or from the bench looking for bragging rights from a $2500 gun that shoots 1.5" sandbag groups. Futthermore, all the more reason I'm not interested in a "looser" built 1911 either, because mechanical accuracy isn't going to eclipse a modern design .45ACP pistol. Neat technology and all, and great history behind them, but the design is OLD, heavy, and has single stack low amount of firepower..... plus SAO with no 100% safe way to quickly uncock a hammer on a live round. Still the best trigger though.

So what you're basically saying is the 1911 doesn't suit your tastes.

From your perspective, the 1911 is for an enthusiast target shooter who not only places importance on a good trigger but on the historical value of his gun. Furthermore, the only 1911 worth owning is a high end one, but doing so would turn you into a snooty show off rich boy with no way to de-cock his load.

[missiontrails]

So what you're basically saying is the 1911 doesn't suit your tastes.

From your perspective, the 1911 is for an enthusiast target shooter who not only places importance on a good trigger but on the historical value of his gun. Furthermore, the only 1911 worth owning is a high end one, but doing so would turn you into a snooty show off rich boy with no way to de-cock his load.

Yep, not making statements for anyone else. There are too many other modern combat pistols that are engineered to deliver 10-15 rounds of 45ACP downrange, no questions asked, no excuses, in harsh conditions, with minimal maintenance, and with good hand held accuracy. Just speaking for me.....just not interested in one of the many clones based on 100 year old technology and design. Yes, all modern designs have borrowed from the old ones, but they have evolved with use of modern materials, and refinements. To each his own, buy and shoot what you enjoy.

[zfields]

So what you're basically saying is the 1911 doesn't suit your tastes.

From your perspective, the 1911 is for an enthusiast target shooter who not only places importance on a good trigger but on the historical value of his gun. Furthermore, the only 1911 worth owning is a high end one, but doing so would turn you into a snooty show off rich boy with no way to de-cock his load.

I'll admit it . That's my reason.

Sent from my HTC Incredible 2 using Tapatalk 2

[jonzer77]

So what you're basically saying is the 1911 doesn't suit your tastes.

From your perspective, the 1911 is for an enthusiast target shooter who not only places importance on a good trigger but on the historical value of his gun. Furthermore, the only 1911 worth owning is a high end one, but doing so would turn you into a snooty show off rich boy with no way to de-cock his load.

Yet still feels the need to come in and spread FUD and contribute nothing of value.......

[missiontrails]

Yet still feels the need to come in and spread FUD and contribute nothing of value.......

I've owned them, and they do nothing for me. I have come to understand that they are more "enthusiast" platform than modern "practical" platform by today's standards. I'm not an ethusiast, many are, and that is great. Don't get pissed that I aired my opinion, because that's all that it is.

My most recent 1911 "design" was a SA Loaded Target 9mm, and that heavy sharp-edged hunk of stainless did NOTHING better than the Walther P99AS that I also had at the time, which was more comfortable, lighter, not begging for lube and maintenance, and uh, about half the price.

[jonzer77]

I've owned them, and they do nothing for me. I have come to understand that they are more "enthusiast" platform than modern "practical" platform by today's standards. I'm not an ethusiast, many are, and that is great. Don't get pissed that I aired my opinion, because that's all that it is.

My most recent 1911 "design" was a SA Loaded Target 9mm, and that heavy sharp-edged hunk of stainless did NOTHING better than the Walther P99AS that I also had at the time, which was more comfortable, lighter, not begging for lube and maintenance, and uh, about half the price.

Not mad, I just had no idea I was talking to a real operator

[missiontrails]

Not mad, I just had no idea I was talking to a real operator

It's funny jonzer, for each person who makes stupid comments like that, usually a 1911 myopian, there is another person who sees them for what they really are. Also, I don't mean "what they really are" as a bad, or even a good thing....they are what they are. Nice poke with the operator comment though.

[zfields]

It's funny jonzer, for each person who makes stupid comments like that, usually a 1911 myopian, there is another person who sees them for what they really are. Also, I don't mean "what they really are" as a bad, or even a good thing....they are what they are. Nice poke with the operator comment though.

I hate when I agree with you

[CK_32]

Man this threads awesome






Keep on a guessing. You guys got both my age wrong. And still haven't figured out which 1911 it is.


You guys are getting warmer

[zfields]

Man this threads awesome






Keep on a guessing. You guys got both my age wrong. And still haven't figured out which 1911 it is.


You guys are getting warmer

SA loaded.

[jonzer77]

Not sure what handguns CK_32 really owns, because according to his post here, he just turned 21. If he has actually owned a 1911, its been for about 10 minutes. He claimed to be 18 in 2010, yet claims to have bought a Glock 17RTF in 2011 and posted a range report.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=11937994#post11937994

Now in this post he claims to be 23.....so from 2010 to 2013 he aged 5 years.....

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...9#post11948159

Man this threads awesome






Keep on a guessing. You guys got both my age wrong. And still haven't figured out which 1911 it is.


You guys are getting warmer

Well it is hard to get it right when you lie about your age........I thought only women do that

[CK_32]

SA loaded.

Z's been watching my posts.. I've only posted about it in 20 threads.

And yes it is in 10 day... But yes I do OWN a 1911...

[missiontrails]

I hate when I agree with you

Lol, I don't always aim to please. In 1911, look at the rifles that ruled the world........lever actions and bolt actions.....and of course the approximate birth date of the 1911 pistol. Now, 2013......... SCAR's, REPR's, AUG's, AR's, AK's, M249"s etc........... and also HK 45's, USP 45's, XDm 45's, G21 Gen 4's, and FNX 45's among others............ that's called evolution.