1911 Reliability: Myths vs Facts

[missiontrails]

my abused stock 2011 ria gi beats a stock glock any day of the week, so im not too worried about reliability issues

So your RIA is different than others? Can you shoot 5000 rounds through it without cleaning it? How about 10,000 rounds? Have you tried using that in a weekend-long pistol course without daily cleaning? Strong comment on your part......"beat out." Maybe you meant "beat out" with 3"-3.5" accuracy? Hey, as long as you enjoy it and shoot it well, that's all that matters.

[redcliff]

So your RIA is different than others? Can you shoot 5000 rounds through it without cleaning it? How about 10,000 rounds? Have you tried using that in a weekend-long pistol course without daily cleaning? Strong comment on your part......"beat out." Maybe you meant "beat out" with 3"-3.5" accuracy? Hey, as long as you enjoy it and shoot it well, that's all that matters.

Who cares if you have to clean your 1911 after 1,000 rounds? Are you really claiming in any possible self defense scenario that would be a problem?

In regard to weight and mag capacity, my lw commander weighs 28oz, within a few ounces of most polymer .45acp pistols. If I can't hit my target with 9 shots (8+1) I'm not so sure an extra 5 or 6 is going to make much difference. If i'm facing so many multiple attackers that it would matter you need only to do some force on force training against multiple competent shooters to find out you aren't Bruce Willis in Diehard and that going up against several shooters at once is going to have you feeling some pain. And that extra magazine capacity comes at a penalty of a grip too large to properly index the handgun for many people.

Many of us also don't consider DA/SA or "safe action" triggers an advancement, and personally I think "safe action" is anything but (as evidenced by NYPD and the huge number of ND's they had after adopting GLocks and requiring the NY trigger mod because of it. I prefer a manual safety.. just like my AR, AK, shotguns, etc. have on them too.

The 1911 is just a superb combination of accuracy, reliability, ergonomics and trigger pull for those that know how to use and maintain them.

[missiontrails]

Who cares if you have to clean your 1911 after 1,000 rounds? Are you really claiming in any possible self defense scenario that would be a problem?

In regard to weight and mag capacity, my lw commander weighs 28oz, within a few ounces of most polymer 1911's. If I can't hit my target with 9 shots (8+1) I'm not so sure an extra 5 or 6 is going to make much difference. If i'm facing so many multiple attackers that it would matter you need only to do some force on force training against multiple competent shooters to find out you aren't Bruce Willis in Diehard and that going up against several shooters at once is going to have you feeling some pain. And that extra magazine capacity comes at a penalty of a grip too large to properly index the handgun for many people.

Many of us also don't consider DA/SA or "safe action" triggers an advancement, and personally I think "safe action" is anything but (as evidenced by NYPD and the huge number of ND's they had after adopting GLocks and requiring the NY trigger mod because of it. I prefer a manual safety.. just like my AR, AK, shotguns, etc. have on them too.

The 1911 is just a superb combination of accuracy, reliability, ergonomics and trigger pull for those that know how to use and maintain them.

No redcliff.... you're going too deep.... guy made a comment, I was wondering which "ways" his RIA "beats out" the said competition. SAO has it merits... Again, I've owned my 1911's, and they're all gone. Ergonomics....I can't stand the thin grip of 1911's, reliability is all over the chart based on who makes it, and what its intended purpose is for, accuracy is combat accurate on sub $700 guns, but I do agree, the trigger break is a unique form of perfection.

[Freq18Hz]

I'm not a moderator, but if I was: I would probably ask that everyone dispense with the personal insults, credential waving, etc. and just get back to the topic at hand.

I think in general, folks actually seem to be in agreement about the 1911 platform on this thread.

I'll throw my $.02 cents in: I shoot a 1911. It's my gun of choice. I'm not a combat kind of guy (I did get into an argument once though). Here's why i like the 1911:

It feels like an extension of my hand. It has a good amount of mass to soak up recoil. The trigger pull is amazing, and consistent. It's built to last, and the design has stood the test of time. It's thinner than a Glock, Sig, or an HK. It looks better than any modern polycarbonate firearm. It's highly customizable. I innately shoot it better than other handguns, which means that I can be extremely lazy and still shoot it "accurately". Shooting is a perishable skill, the more accurate I am before the hard work and practice, the better.

All this said, I would never buy a kimber, or a sig (no offense to the owners of these, I'm not dissing your purchase) or similar non high end 1911. If I was on a budget, I would much rather have an HK, or a Glock. I'd buy a CZ before both. While I find all 1911's so reliable that I would not stand in front of one, I do think that the platform requires more finesse to be tuned and "running right". I also think that Glock is the toyota corolla of handguns, and that you tend to notice a lot less if your corolla has a hiccup or two, compared to your ferrari missing a step. In my opinion, 1911's are capable of a lot more than a tupperware gun, which means that owners have higher expectations.

I think Glocks and HK's, XD's are all fine guns. They are made in a time of planned obsolescence, and throw away consumerism. The 1911 has been around a long time to show all it's flaws, these other new kids on the block are just getting started in comparison. I have no doubt that a glock would probably be more reliable compared to the average 1911, especially if we are talking shooting 10,000 rounds in a weekend.

To summarize, here is some gun pron:

1992 Springfield NM bi-tone. They no longer do factory bluing like this, I regret selling it.


Another regret, one of two Kobra Carry's that I sold. I've never felt anything that feels as good as an Ed Brown in the hand. His bead blasted stainless it's the most beautiful finish I have ever seen.



-Freq

[Simply115]

True.. but Thompson was 1917, and Garand after that. Was just thinking of what was actually there in 1911.

The Maxim 1908, 1910.

[missiontrails]

I'm not a moderator, but if I was: I would probably ask that everyone dispense with the personal insults, credential waving, etc. and just get back to the topic at hand.

I think in general, folks actually seem to be in agreement about the 1911 platform on this thread.

I'll throw my $.02 cents in: I shoot a 1911. It's my gun of choice. I'm not a combat kind of guy (I did get into an argument once though). If someone started shooting at me, I would say there is a high probability I would crap my pants in terror. That said, here's why i like the 1911:

It feels like an extension of my hand. It has a good amount of mass to soak up recoil. The trigger pull is amazing, and consistent. It's built to last, and the design has stood the test of time. It's thinner than a Glock, Sig, or an HK. It looks better than any modern polycarbonate firearm. It's highly customizable. I innately shoot it better than other handguns, which means that I can be extremely lazy and still shoot it "accurately". Shooting is a perishable skill, the better I am before the hard work and practice, the better.

All this said, I would never buy a kimber, or a sig (no offense to the owners of these, I'm not dissing your purchase) or similar non high end 1911. If I was on a budget, I would much rather have an HK, or a Glock. I'd buy a CZ before both. While I find all 1911's so reliable that I would not stand in front of one, I do think that the platform requires more finesse to be tuned and "running right". I also think that Glock is the toyota corolla of handguns, and that you tend to notice a lot less if your corolla has a hiccup or two, compared to your ferrari missing a step. In my opinion, 1911's are capable of a lot more than a tupperware gun, which means that owners have higher expectations.

I think Glocks and HK's, XD's are all fine guns. They are made in a time of planned obsolescence, and throw away consumerism. The 1911 has been around a long time to show all it's flaws, these other new kids on the block are just getting started in comparison. I have no doubt that a glock would probably be more reliable compared to the average 1911, especially if we are talking shooting 10,000 rounds in a weekend.

To summarize, here is some gun pron:




-Freq

I agree with your logic. Totally agree. What I don't understand the logic in, is people on tight budgets who take their $500 and buy the LOWEST level of 1911 offered on the market, instead of buying the best of what the mainstream has to offer, ie: something polycarbonate (or not, ie CZ, Beretta for non .45)) and proven to be reliable....because its an actual brand and model, as opposed to the cheapest possible reiteration of a 100+ year old design. BTW, your Ed Brown is Bad A**.

[DuneShoot]

Because not everyone has a grand+ to drop on a pistol. Some people want a 500 1911 and are happy with it. Some people want an entry level 1911 because they like the platform. Some people don't have the 1911 experience yet and start at the bottom. Some people know best because their friend said so.

So many reasons.

[Dvrjon]

The bottom line is what Hilton said, that there is no good reason why you should not be able to take your new 1911 out of the box, clean off the shipping preservative, lightly lube it and then use the heck out of it without any issues, and if you can't then it means that the manufacturer shipped a not quite completed pistol and should finish the job that they started.

I don't disagree. However, the same rag magazine published the counterpoint:
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3250

I think "web journalism" is more about creating traffic and conflict than it is about informing.

JR

[missiontrails]

Because not everyone has a grand+ to drop on a pistol. Some people want a 500 1911 and are happy with it. Some people want an entry level 1911 because they like the platform. Some people don't have the 1911 experience yet and start at the bottom. Some people know best because their friend said so.

So many reasons.

Better to buy the used Accord than the new Malibu. Yes, the other side of me does understand the curiously with new shooters and 1911's... and yes, I guess it's not a bad thing that there are low cost options to put one in their hands.

[Freq18Hz]

Better to buy the used Accord than the new Malibu. Yes, the other side of me does understand the curiously with new shooters and 1911's... and yes, I guess it's not a bad thing that there are low cost options to put one in their hands.

I have a buddy who has a RIA that he spent a lot of elbow grease time customizing and tuning, and hand fitting upgrades. It's ugly as hell, but looks cool because it's all business. Shoots great too. I definitely understand where you are coming from though, and agree. Fortunately, that's why we have choices (albeit limited) in this matter. I think the limit of constitutional freedoms make these choices unique in California. There are probably a lot of folks that would prefer a standard capacity Glock 19 than a 7-8 round commander sized 1911 in Texas. In California however, there are those that would prefer 8 rounds of .45 vs 10 rounds of 9mm. I think this is also why pre-lock revolvers in California fetch a handsome price. More inherent accuracy and reliability that any off the shelf Glock or 1911, fantastic triggers, powerful calibers. Built to last.

More pron:





Here's a more modern design, and more pron. I wouldn't buy another new Sig, but they sure are nice to look at, and they feel awesome in the hand:





-Freq

[davidb]

So your RIA is different than others? Can you shoot 5000 rounds through it without cleaning it? How about 10,000 rounds? Have you tried using that in a weekend-long pistol course without daily cleaning? Strong comment on your part......"beat out." Maybe you meant "beat out" with 3"-3.5" accuracy? Hey, as long as you enjoy it and shoot it well, that's all that matters.

No i mean beat as in accuracy, not throw brass in your face, goes bang every time just like your treasured glock, feeds any bullet ive tried...if you can find one legitimate case where someone was not able to clean their gun after 5000-10000 rounds (and i mean not able to as in couldn't find the supplies,time etc.) then i will give up 1911's for good, but until then a 15 minute cleaning between every 500 rnds or so is well worth the advantages over the glock platform.

[missiontrails]

No i mean beat as in accuracy, not throw brass in your face, goes bang every time just like your treasured glock, feeds any bullet ive tried...if you can find one legitimate case where someone was not able to clean their gun after 5000-10000 rounds (and i mean not able to as in couldn't find the supplies,time etc.) then i will give up 1911's for good, but until then a 15 minute cleaning between every 500 rnds or so is well worth the advantages over the glock platform.

I don't own a Glock right now, but I've owned 3, and two were G21's... and yes, my first G21, a gen 3, absolutely threw brass in my face. Lets not pretend that the RIA 1911A1 is a match grade gun. A bone stock RIA is in no way more mechanically accurate than a G21, and it's at best a GI grade 1911 capable of acceptable combat accuracy. If you spend $400 more on it, that obvioisly changes things a bit. Also, the 5000-10000 example is just a testament to Glock, HK, probably even XD's tolerance to neglect. A RIA will NEVER be as reliable as a Glock in the longrun, and it's not supposed to be... it's the nature of the beast.

[Freq18Hz]

I don't own a Glock right now, but I've owned 3, and two were G21's... and yes, my first G21, a gen 3, absolutely threw brass in my face. Lets not pretend that the RIA 1911A1 is a match grade gun. A bone stock RIA is in no way more mechanically accurate than a G21, and it's at best a GI grade 1911 capable of acceptable combat accuracy. If you spend $400 more on it, that obvioisly changes things a bit. Also, the 5000-10000 example is just a testament to Glock, HK, probably even XD's tolerance to neglect. A RIA will NEVER be as reliable as a Glock in the longrun, and it's not supposed to be... it's the nature of the beast.

I agree with this too. I also think however, if you placed glock and a 1911 in some oil, and let them sit for a few hundred years, that the 1911 would likely hold up better. In my experience, plastics don't age well. I realize this is a silly argument, and doesn't matter.

Unlike some, I don't hate Glocks or tupperware. I like the HK USP's a lot, I find them to be incredibly accurate and extremely easy to shoot. I understand that tupperware responds better to temperature changes (to a degree, pun intended). If I were in Texas, I very well might prefer a full capacity glock to an 8 round 1911. In California however, the 1911 is my choice. CZ-75b for smaller calibers. I may own another Glock again someday. For my purposes I just don't really see any advantage, besides being able to own 5-6 of them for the price of one quality 1911.

If Glock or HK made a more comfortable, slimmer (or as slim as a 1911) model that could hang accuracy-wise out of the box with my 1911's, I would probably own one. Unfortunately they don't. This is why for me, the 1911 is king.

-Freq

[davidb]

I don't own a Glock right now, but I've owned 3, and two were G21's... and yes, my first G21, a gen 3, absolutely threw brass in my face. Lets not pretend that the RIA 1911A1 is a match grade gun. A bone stock RIA is in no way more mechanically accurate than a G21, and it's at best a GI grade 1911 capable of acceptable combat accuracy. If you spend $400 more on it, that obvioisly changes things a bit. Also, the 5000-10000 example is just a testament to Glock, HK, probably even XD's tolerance to neglect. A RIA will NEVER be as reliable as a Glock in the longrun, and it's not supposed to be... it's the nature of the beast.

Im not claiming it to be a match grade 1911, but i get some good groups with it, comparable to the stock glocks i and my friends shoot...it may be due to the shooters not making full use of the "mechanical accuracy", but i shoot a lot of guns fairly well and the ria is no slouch in the accuracy dept...maybe i got a cherry (donno what the opposite of a lemon is).

I think the people who see problems with ria's are the people who try to make it a competition gun, adding "upgrades" and polishing and dremeling on stuff to fix a problem that isnt there.

My experience with ria is i cleaned and oiled my gun when new, put my favorite grips on and its been great ever since.

[missiontrails]

Im not claiming it to be a match grade 1911, but i get some good groups with it, comparable to the stock glocks i and my friends shoot...it may be due to the shooters not making full use of the "mechanical accuracy", but i shoot a lot of guns fairly well and the ria is no slouch in the accuracy dept...maybe i got a cherry (donno what the opposite of a lemon is).

I think the people who see problems with ria's are the people who try to make it a competition gun, adding "upgrades" and polishing and dremeling on stuff to fix a problem that isnt there.

My experience with ria is i cleaned and oiled my gun when new, put my favorite grips on and its been great ever since.

I do believe you're right, and you should just leave it alone, except for experimenting with grips.