40 cal not enough?

[Greenspartan117]

I was just joking - he had a gun pointed in his direction and he took 3 shots. two hit the guy and one hit the car just behind him. like I said in my other post - he did well considering how many people were around and the situation.

Was this at the University Village in Riverside? I read the school briefing report...

[StukaJr]

I have heard before to never under any circumstances use handloads for self defense. Does anyone have any real-world experience with the use of handloads being a problem in court??

Yes and no. Using handloads potentially opens you up to character attacks - if your lawyer lets it slip, then it might do some damage. Also, in ballistics tests, there is nothing to test with - your remaining ammo in the magazine is evidence and can't be destroyed. If there are anomalies that contradict your story - you won't have any ballistic data to fall back onto. Did you load too light or too hot? Was the shooting at close range but similar caliber performance would put you at longer distance? ETC, etc...

If you do load your handgun with handloads - make your batch, count of the ammo you are going to test, ammo you are going to load in magazines, then pack up the rest, notarize a letter that "this is the ammo I'm loading into my self-defense handgun), add a most complete reloading recipe you are using, then mail that entire package to yourself (signature on receipt required, receipt confirmation, insurance - all nine yards) then leave that package still sealed in a safe place. This way, ballistics will have something to test.

You are better off using off the shelf defensive ammo - find a good performer and stay with it, your lawyer will have less of a headache defending you and prosecution will have one less hook to hang you on. I handload quality ammo but all my defense ammo is Factory that I pay premium price for.

[proraptor]

I've never really liked the .40 as I find it to feel a little snappy....I like the 45 acp better...

[AJD]

I also believe that slower heavier bullets suffer penetration problems when propelling JHP bullets? Of course, it's often preached by proponents of 185gr JHP .45ACP ammo so I don't know whom to trust anymore - I am looking to do some penetration/expansion tests when the weather allows.

That goes against physics. Slower heavier bullets, will almost always penetrate further than faster, lighter bullets in the same caliber. Penetration has more to do with sectional density than anything else. The heavier the bullet in the caliber, the more sectional density. Lighter faster bullets will expand more, however, when expansion is increased, penetration usually decreases. www.firearmstactical.com is a good reference at explaining some of these things. Many of the contributers there are members of the International Wound Ballistics association.

[medic707]

I think i might be but as others have said shot placement is key for any round.
Ive seen my fair share of GSW's and have worked on a guy shot 3 times (2 to the chest, 1 in the neck) with a .45 all through and through, and the guy walked out of the hospital within a couple days and never showed any signs of distress while in my care.
I have also had a guy that was DRT after one shot to the chest with .25 with the shell case no more than 10ft away and by bystanders acounts was dropped on the spot.
Now granted im not sure the type of ammo used in either incident but i suspect the .45 was either fmj or hollow points that didnt expand due to the exit wound.
But either way shot placement and keep shootin till they stop. Cause if you dont hit something that promotes rapid blood loss, or disables the cns they aint comin down and it doesnt matter much what size round you use, granted bigger rounds create bigger wound channels both termporary and permanent.

[C.G.]

I've never really liked the .40 as I find it to feel a little snappy....I like the 45 acp better...

I am with you on that one, except I prefer the .357 Sig better than .45 ACP.

[StukaJr]

That goes against physics. Slower heavier bullets, will almost always penetrate further than faster, lighter bullets in the same caliber. Penetration has more to do with sectional density than anything else. The heavier the bullet in the caliber, the more sectional density. Lighter faster bullets will expand more, however, when expansion is increased, penetration usually decreases. www.firearmstactical.com is a good reference at explaining some of these things. Many of the contributers there are members of the International Wound Ballistics association.

Even regardless of significant increase in velocity? I mean, lighter bullet can burn up more powder at the same pressure and push the bullet a lot faster - it seems to me that laws of physics would equate light/fast and slow/heavy with marginal difference - at short to medium handgun ranges, of course.

I'm aware of the old maxim of "Slow and heavy - puts a lot of air in and blood out", but that's before Barnes type solid copper bullets. Given Barnes design, a lot less energy is transfered into deformation unlike lead - no matter how dense the lead is, it's still relatively soft as far as jacketed cartridges are concerned. Barnes bullets are much lighter for their size - since lead is one of the densest metals and copper just isn't - yet there is more penetration and more controlled expansion with solid copper than with heavier jacketed lead bullets, of the same caliber.

[Hoop]

the point is neither one did any real damage and the guy was in and out of the hospital before the paperwork was done on the situation.

That guy was lucky. Another gang banger down in the Bay decided he'd shoot a toll operator, then crash his car and get into a running shootout with a Sergeant. He (the bad guy) got hit once in the leg, and the .40 went directly into his femur, snapped it in half, and came out the other end pushing a piece of flesh the size of your fist.

[AJD]

Even regardless of significant increase in velocity? I mean, lighter bullet can burn up more powder at the same pressure and push the bullet a lot faster - it seems to me that laws of physics would equate light/fast and slow/heavy with marginal difference - at short to medium handgun ranges, of course.

I think you're equating faster as meaning better in terms of penetration. Again, that's not always the case. The faster the projectile hits, the more damage done to the projectile, thus less penetration. That's why FMJ bullets penetrate MUCH further than HPs. Part of the same concept applies. Also, as I mentioned it's more about sectional density. Take the 30-06 for example. Hunters use the lighter and faster loads on smaller game where max penetration is not needed. The heavier 200 and 220gr loads are for large game with thick skin and bone where more penetration is needed. lI'm not aware of anyone familiar with ballistics who thinks that lighter faster bullets will more often penetrate farther than heavier slower bullets of the same caliber. Your Barnes example has nothing to do with this because we're talking about an all copper bullet. That round is more resistent to expand, thus lighter weights can be used to get more expansion, yet it avoids overexpansion because it's made entirely of stiffer copper.

[leanos]

I would guess that shooting a full size H&K .40 will get the job done.
Doubt I would need to empty the magazine in fact.

The .40 ballistics rival the .357 in many ways, and we all know how that works...

cheers

[saki302]

A stop is always preferable to a kill.

Think if it this way- if the guys tops after 1 shot, but walks out of the hospital in 15 minutes, you still wont he fight.
If the guy drops dead in 20 minutes, AFTER hacking you to bits with a meat cleaver, you lost

Remember, a handgun is a handgun- a compromise in power based on the need to conceal. If your buddy wants to drop the guy for sure, carry a rifle!

-Dave

[Scotto]

Was this at the University Village in Riverside? I read the school briefing report...

yuppers

[supersonic]

I don't CARE!!!!!!! What the F**K IS a "BAG?"
S.S.

[draconianruler]

Isn't the .40 SW a weakend 10mm

[TonyM]

Isn't the .40 SW a weakend 10mm

Yeah, it's a reduced 10mm.

If you like buying new handguns, have fun choosing from all 8 (5 of which are Glocks) of the 10mm guns on the roster.