Handgun Buying Guide Based On the Trigger Pull

[-hanko]

This thread is becoming just as entertaining as a good grizzly bear thread.

-hanko

[Paradiddle]

Can As for accuracy, that is EXTREMELY relative. Are you only allowing yourself only seconds, working from the holster, working at varied distances, firing controlled pairs, or are you working from behind a bench and taking your time and only firing one DA pull for every 20 or so single action pulls. There is a big difference.

If you've truly mannaged to master both trigger pulls, and get consistent groupings...great...you are a better man than the rest of us. That is very hard to do.

I'm not a master by far - but I can shoot DA/SA fast and accurately because I practice - that IMO is the key. No trigger or gun design will make up for good practice, dry firing, drawing, etc. drills - and over course shooting thousands of rounds in practice a year. I'm competing - so yes I'm drawing from a holster and firing under time pressure - time is points and accuracy is points. It's all very pressure packed in IPDA or IPSC. And great fun!

Enjoy your class and have fun.

[Paradiddle]

This thread is becoming just as entertaining as a good grizzly bear thread.

-hanko

Like the one in the shotgun forum? That was a good thread.

[tacticalcity]

I'm not a master by far - but I can shoot DA/SA fast and accurately because I practice - that IMO is the key. No trigger or gun design will make up for good practice, dry firing, drawing, etc. drills - and over course shooting thousands of rounds in practice a year. I'm competing - so yes I'm drawing from a holster and firing under time pressure - time is points and accuracy is points. It's all very pressure packed in IPDA or IPSC. And great fun!

Enjoy your class and have fun.

I agree with that statement 100%. My argument is that the right trigger helps speed that process up is all. The class is only 4 days long.

Every Glock competitor I know has had a trigger job to get rid of the long reset and gritty factory feel. Every 1911 guy I know has done a trigger job. It's not like it's a "problem" - I think you are overstating that part.

Every Glock I have ever owned had a very short reset compared to similar guns, especially the Springfield XD and Sig 250. But it could be shorter. I'm not sure if the Glockworx trigger shortens the trigger reset, but it certainly reduces the pull weight. I am strongly considering it. I am not sure he would have noticed the reset after 4 days of training on the Glock, but he would have with the XD or 250. Pull weight you notice right away.

At this point, as far as my cousin is concerned, it no longer matters. Turns out he has his heart set on the HK USP .40S&W Full Size. He and his friends went drooling over guns already and that is the one he fell in love with, all before he talked to me. His argument was the way it fit his hand, but I have a strong feeling it is about brand name recognition and the military history behind it. I've owned the compact version of this gun and really liked it. It can be carried cocked and locked (if you get the right trigger pack - I prefer the v1) and it is reliable and accurate. So based on my requirements for what makes a great handgun, it fits...all without my pressuring him one way or the other.

The only thing I did not like about the USP was the magazine release. It works by pushing down on a lever, rather than pushing in a button. Its not as easy at first but once you figure it out, its fine. No gun is perfect.

I think he will be happy. Now we just have to find one on Gunbroker.com, or the for sale forum that he can afford. I am not sure what his time frame is.

[Californio]

My Colt Gold Cup (target gun) has a very very light trigger.

My Colt Combat Commander that was customized by La France Specialties, 30 years ago has a heavy trigger (on purpose), so under stress you do not squeeze one off, which would be very likely with the Gold Cup.

The XD45 Service has a lighter trigger than my Commander.

A carry 1911 can be configured with a heavy trigger if desired and does not take much to do so.

Make mine 1911.

[checkenbach]

I think sending a noob with a new gun to a 4 day shooting/training class is an invitation to disaster!!!! I've been shooting for quite a while, and the DAP action pistol class was quite an eye opener, drawing from a holster, reloading, being safe, AND hitting what you're aiming is a bunch to take in, even more so if you're not too familiar with the weapon. I would tell him to get something he feels confident shooting, not what someone says is good for him to buy.

[tacticalcity]

It is designed specifically for Noobs who have never touched a gun. It is great for returning students, but places a heavy emphasis on the basics. You don't touch the holster until day 3 (if I am remembering correctly). They ease you into it. All along the way safety is stressed. The first day is all about the basics. As if you never touched a gun before. Regardless of your skill, you go slow right along with everyone else and relearn your technique from scratch. If you only go once every year (or every couple of years) it can't hurt to get the refresher that way. There are more advanced classes if your skill level warrants it.

Not all courses are the same. Lots of schools offer a faster paced curriculum and gloss over the basics because the students there are all at level where they don't need it. Front Sight did not do that at all when I took it. It was very much a beginners course. In order to really ace the timed test at the end, you really need to take the course a couple times.

Look, I hear what you guys are saying. But so far I am the only one to post that has taken the class. We have a lot of people posting here who have not taken the class, or put multiple actions through the this class, and I have. Yet you guys are all telling me the lessons I learned while doing so are not true. That I made it up or something. I am relating first hand experience, not theoretical opinion. So while your opinions may be valid, I know for fact mine are valid. I know because I did it myself, with my own hands. Nothing you say is going to change the first hand experiences I have. If I want to pass on those experiences to my Cousin, to save him from spending his hard earned money on a gun I know he will not like by the end of the course, what do you care? Do you really think he is going to HATE owning a Glock, USP or 1911? Come on...those are all excellent firearms. They would all make a great first time gun. I'd like to own a few of each. Most people would like to own a few of each. You really think he'll be at a disadvantage with one of those? Seriously? You really think he is going to say "Boy, this gun really sucks!" with one of those options? Sure someday he might find something he likes better, but all three of those are pretty safe bets.

And I might add, he chose the USP on his own. All I did for him was confirm I thought it would serve him well. I'd rather he try the Glock or 1911 first (I don't think they offer the USP for rent at Front Sight or I would tell him to try it before he bought it). But if he wants to buy it, I can't exactly stop him.

If he wanted to by a Beretta, I couldn't stop him. All I could do is explain why I thought it was a bad choice, and I that I made that mistake already. But he doesn't want a Beretta, he wants a USP.

He hasn't bought it yet. He might wait and rent something, he might buy it. Either way, once his money is spent I will be supportive. It's his money.

[HCz]

This is the only trip to a school like this that is 100% free for him (aside for the gun) so probably the only one we'll be taking together. I want to listen to him brag about how great he is doing, rather than listen to him complain about how hard it is. If he is doing well, I will want to better so he doesn't get to tease me about it. I don't want to spend all my time feeling bad for him, and trying to help him fix it.

Then you got the wrong mindset. The purpose of attending the class is to learn what you don't know, not to feel good. If you want to feel good, there are other things you can do with guns. It maybe hard, but good things are not easy to obtain.

Look, I hear what you guys are saying. But so far I am the only one to post that has taken the class. We have a lot of people posting here who have not taken the class, or put multiple actions through the this class, and I have. Yet you guys are all telling me the lessons I learned while doing so are not true. That I made it up or something. I am relating first hand experience, not theoretical opinion. So while your opinions may be valid, I know for fact mine are valid. I know because I did it myself, with my own hands. Nothing you say is going to change the first hand experiences I have. If I want to pass on those experiences to my Cousin, to save him from spending his hard earned money on a gun I know he will not like by the end of the course, what do you care?

You maybe the only one that took the class, but from the description, it's not something that is monumental. As someone said above, training is the key. Having a nice trigger might be helpful, but training is the issue. You might want to save your cousin from the path that you took, but you are also subjugating him to the same frame that you are stuck in.

[tacticalcity]

Honestly, all your doing is finding anything you can to pick apart for the sake of picking it apart. You are arguing to argue. I have no interest in that. This issue is closed. He made his choice.

My cousin asked me my advice on what I, not you, think is important when buying a gun. I told him.

Turns out the gun he wanted all along, the USP, is a gun I think is pretty amazing. It not only has the a trigger I like and can be carried cocked and locked which I like it also fits his hand and personal preferrance. The reviews on it all great. I've owned one and had great results. He might wait and try a Glock first. He might not. Either way, he'll end up with a great gun. He is happy, I am happy for him.

So if there is something to argue about here, I don't see it?

If I were trying to talk him out of gun he and you think was great, I would understand the need to continue to stress your point. It is a non-issue now. He is getting his first choice and favorite gun of the 50 or so he looked at.

For the record my mind set is just fine. Carrying about my cousin's happiness should and does come first. Let's not get personal here. I am not trying to force him to buy a specific gun. Your point would be valid if I were saying..."you must buy a Glock" but I am not. I listed several guns I liked and said why. I listed several guns I did not and said why. And I passed on my method for evaluating trigger pull. People are gonna hold the guns in the store. So they will know if they like how it feels and if it fits, and if it doesn't they are gonna move. I am trying to give him and others a more detailed way of judging how it will perform that just how it looks and feels. The trigger is a very big part about how a gun functions. It matters. To me, it matters most of all. There are SO many options out there. One or more of those is gonna not only have a trigger that is easy to master, its gonna fit his hand and be reliable. He is a big boy. In the end, he's gonna get the gun he wants no matter what I say. So seriously? Where is the issue? I don't see it. Is that I said I don't think he should buy the gun you love? I didn't include your gun on my list of great guns so you're offended? What do you care what I think? You clearly love your gun. My opinion of it shouldn't and doesn't matter to you. You're happy...which is great all around. So why yell at me for not liking it?

Hey, I fully admit I got testy with a guy...and once I realized I was out of line apologized for it. So why keep up trying to pick a fight?

[HCz]

Honestly, all your doing is finding anything you can to pick apart for the sake of picking it apart. You are arguing to argue.

I think differently. Your argument was that trigger pull has to be a significant factor in choosing a gun. Here is your similar thought from another thread.

You can always tell the guys that only shoot their handguns on a typical California firing range (bench only at 25 yards and have plenty of time to cock the hammer and monkey around) and never shoot from a holster or train in real life conditions. They L-O-V-E their overpriced politically correct DA/SA handguns like Sigs and Berettas that not only have a very complicated trigger to master, but cannot be carried cocked and locked...and they hate the guns like Glocks that have triggers that are easy to master, or H&K v1s and 1911s that can at least be carried cocked and locked.

If these knuckleheads ever did a side by side comparison in a true to life scenario they would quickly change their minds. I did. I used to be a big time Glock hater (because they are ugly). They I took a Defensive Handgun Course with my pretty Beretta 96FS and got spanked by the Glock and 1911 guys. Switched to a Glock and it was like night and day. Suddenly I was a bad a__!

You think you are a bad a__ but I've known people who use DA/SA pistol and can outshoot SAO pistol users all day long. The difference is practice and training. DA/SA pistols are not hinderance to one's shooting.

For the record my mind set is just fine.

That's what you think, but it's akin to seeing a tree but not the forrest.

I didn't include your gun on my list of great guns so you're offended? What do you care what I think? You clearly love your gun. My opinion of it shouldn't and doesn't matter to you. You're happy...which is great all around. So why yell at me for not liking it?

My problem is that you called DA/SA users knuckleheads(read the quoted post above) while talking about things that are not grounded in reasons. If my opinion doesn't matter to you, you can also diengage yourself from my replies, yet you tend to reply to my comments too.

Hey, I fully admit I got testy with a guy...and once I realized I was out of line apologized for it. So why keep up trying to pick a fight?

That's interesting. Last night around 9-10pm I read your reply on previous page and you said something along the lines of 'seems like everyone is expert here', which you editted it out.

What you are going through here is what a some went through. You went to a few classes, and suddenly you think you know most, if not all things, about pistolcraft. Interestingly there are people out there who has done more with pistols than either of us combined that doesn't get hung up on trigger. Might be something you want to think about.

[Paradiddle]

The bottom line is you are a Glock lover - which is fine - but don't try and put down everything else because in your limited experience (which you've already admitted) you thing DA/SA is hard to manage or "complicated".

Please. Ask Angus Hobbel about complicated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNBKYchOCZU&feature=related

Why don't you just like your Glock, shoot what you like, and move on. Stop trying to create a "buyers guide" - just say - "hey - I like Glocks" and everyone will say "cool, I do too" or "cool, I don't like the grip angle"...

[nn3453]

The bottom line is you are a Glock lover - which is fine - but don't try and put down everything else because in your limited experience (which you've already admitted) you thing DA/SA is hard to manage or "complicated".

So much drama in this thread. Shot my SP-01 again this morning. DA on draw, SA after that. Doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

Often folks blame lack of trigger time or poor technique on the gun. Handgun shooting isn't magic and there is no magic wand. It is a motor skill. Just needs practice. A lot of it.

[HCz]

You try to claim that you are not the best shot, the smartest person on the subject, but you seem to have no problem using your (limited) experience as the basis for your argument. Unfortunately that is not the best way to present your case. Even if it was posted as a response to "GLOCK SUCKS" comment, your post was no better than those who have no basis for their argument. You resort to name calling, and call DA/SA system being complicated and politically correct when neither is true.

Furthermore, you fail to provide any objective proof of your argument other than 'go take a class' which can easily refuted by many others who has more extensive experience than you (or me). In fact a lot of people who are well known in the industry doesn't get too hung up on trigger types. That's because it is the person who is pulling the trigger that makes the difference, not the trigger mechanism.

As many pointed out, training is what is important. You can stack the deck in your favor, but if you can't perform when the things go bad, it won't help you. The best and the most important thing is to train properly. If stacking the deck in your favor is significant, then how about going to a training class with an IPSC Open division gun? They usually have really light triggers, have many features that can be used. The shooter will feel like a 'bad a__' but he won't learn any better as IPSC Open gun may not be the best tool for self-defense, and it's that training that makes the difference, not the tool.

The discovery you made is more likey a misleading understanding which you are perpetuating here. Your criteria was (from post #5)

Unless you are drawing from a holster, firing a controlled pair, then reholstering the weapon and repeating the process, you really can't tell which is truly best. Firing at 50 yards from a bench where you can take your time and cheat by not having to engage the safety and holster the weapon before you start over, you really have no idea which gun is truly better in "real life".

And what I get from those who have extensive use of handguns in real life is that training is what matters more than a nice trigger, and DA/SA is not so hard to learn.

You even go further and make claims like(post #12)

The DAK models have an EXTREMELY long reset making them equally hard to master. You pretty much have to completely release the trigger before you can pull it again. It's not like the Glock wich has an extremely short reset.

Interestingly there are rumors that Sig P250, which is usually referred as DAO will be adopted by Federal Air Marshalls. DAK and H&K's LEM triggers may be long but they are not hard to master as you think. In fact I've seen some people prefer those system over DA/SA.

Your guide is misleading and provides very little substance. Basically, you are looking at a tree, but not the forrest. Having guns that are nice is helpful, but it is better to practice more than to get hung up about a particular trigger mechanism.

[tacticalcity]

Dude, you are not reading my posts. You are search them just so you can find something to argue about, ignoring the fact that your new arguments completly distorting my views.

I've said about 50 times I prefer the HK in a DA/SA. It can be carried cocked and locked. I absolutely LOVE the HK USP in a v1 trigger. The V1 trigger is a DA/SA trigger. It can be carried cocked and locked. So I love it. I have not had the opportunity to personally try out the other variants. I may find I like them just as well. For example, I have not tried the LEM trigger but heard great things about it, but also heard some people say they didn't like the reset. I have yet to check it out because I can't find it. I have been looking like crazy for one so I could. So seriously...how many things are going to completely agree with me about but keep on yelling at me about as if we don't agree?

As for the Sig 250...you have to completely release the trigger for it to reset. That means you can no longer take advantage of trigger reset to reduce the amount of time it takes to get follow up shots off. Do a YouTube search, there is a video showing how that trigger works. Every single class I have ever taken heavily stressed the importance of not releasing your finger from the trigger, but rather taking advantage of trigger reset in increase both speed and accuracy. The class I took yesterday covered it, and it was about CCW, yet they felt it was important enough to include it in a class not about marksmanship. So are all those instructors, from completely different walks of life and organizations, are all of them completely wrong?

I don't know how many times or ways I can say it. I agree with you that training is the absolute most important factor in how comptent you are going to be. With enough training, any gun will do. I just believe in removing as many obsticals as possible. Especially if you are new.

My guide tells people how to compare the triggers and draw their own conclusions about which one they like. They don't have to agree with my conclusions about which gun has the best trigger for them. But at least they will be looking at more than just how pretty it is.

My personal opinion is that the trigger matters. Its not the only thing that matters. But it matters. You don't agree. Ok...I get it.

[tacticalcity]

The bottom line is you are a Glock lover - which is fine - but don't try and put down everything else because in your limited experience (which you've already admitted) you thing DA/SA is hard to manage or "complicated".

Please. Ask Angus Hobbel about complicated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNBKYchOCZU&feature=related

Why don't you just like your Glock, shoot what you like, and move on. Stop trying to create a "buyers guide" - just say - "hey - I like Glocks" and everyone will say "cool, I do too" or "cool, I don't like the grip angle"...

You're missing my point completely. I love all kinds of guns. I loved my HK USP Compact just as much as my Glock. I love a lot of different guns. I have ZERO brand loyalty when I buy a gun. I've shot and loved lots of guns that were not Glocks and would buy them in a heart beat if I found the right deal. I've got 1911s, USPs and Walther P99 QAs in my Gunbroker.com wish list at the moment, and I am sure other brands will be added soon. I even have a Bersa Thunder 380 in my list even though it has the exact kind of trigger I hate...because I need a backup gun that is really tiny. Its not my primary. It will have a specific use which means size is gonna matter more than the trigger. I have not bought it because I am still looking for something more to my liking...but I might. My point is I've owned guns that made shooting a chore rather than fun and exciting. What is wrong with saying so? What is wrong with making sure people know exactly what they are buying before they buy it?

When somebody is buying their very first gun, they have no idea what to expect. I am just trying to tell them that there is more to a gun than looks. Most people buy their first gun strictly off looks. I know from personal experience that is a bad idea. I am pointing out the different triggers, how they work, and passing on what I personally do and don't like about them. I fully agree that how it fits your hand matters. The sights matter. Ability to easily manipulate the controls matters. On and on. In the end they will probably ignore me, and everyone else and buy the one they thing is pretty. The heart wants what the heart wants.

I only got defensive in response to others getting defensive and calling me an idiot. I apologized for doing so and am trying not to let being called an idiot bother me. I know what I know.