Handgun Buying Guide Based On the Trigger Pull

[missiondude]

I am guilty of not reading the 6 pages prior to my post, just answering the question the OP asked. Both my FS classes were 4 day defensive handgun, and both had 40 students in them. 8 or 9 were returning in both classes, and only 4 of the 40 passed in my first class, and 5 of the 40 in the second with one making "Distinguished". There were over 5 LEO's in both classes, and not all of them passed the test at graduate level. To state that there is much to learn, and that the test is not easy is an understatement. I probably could have passed with the TDA gun this time around, but not having to press a 8 lb trigger on headshots really helped my confidence this time. On the first darw in the test at 3 yds, I got a really bad grip (was actually on the slide) repositioned, drew and shot from close contact (position 3 for those that have attended) and made good hits as the targets were turning away. Could I have done that with my TDA, probably not. The instructors will tell you that the Glock and XD type actions are the easiest to handle under short time pressure. If I ever try to take the Combat Master prep class, you can bet that there will be no TDA, or forward up safety in my hands. May try it with a 1911, but will probably go Glock, XD, or M&P. The time pressure is so high, that any minor hitch in you presentation will be magnified to the point of failure.

[tacticalcity]

Did you get the "graduate" sticker the second time around? Or did you miss it by a few points. Nothing more frustraiting than being just shy of getting that nod to continue on to a more advanced class. The required bar for the skill level to take the Advanced Handgun Course is set very high.

The first time you go into that test with so much confidence, having seen such drastic improvement over the past four days. It simply shocking how hard it is. The second time around you're a little pshcyed out by how hard you found it to be the last time. But in real life...it will just as hard if not harder.

Instructors told me the same thing. Try the Glock. At that time the XD either wasn't out yet, or had not gotten the degree of acceptance that it has now...I can't remember. I tried the Glock, and I improved drastically. Not because Glock is magical, but because I wasn't fighting with the safety and DA trigger pull anymore. It made a huge difference for me, and countless people I have talked to that took the 4 Day Defensive Handgun course had the same experience. It is that first hand experience, and the experience of my fellow students, and the advice from my instructors upon which I base my conclusion that a trigger matters a great deal in how quickly a beginner can master his firearm.

If you haven't trained under those conditions, and taken that test, I guess you just won't get it. Words just don't convey how hard and heartbreaking it is not to do well on that test after making all that progress, and how great it feels to find something out there helps your performance.

By the time you get the competition level, you're probably no longer a noob. You've clearly mastered the gun you have and maybe you no longer can remember how hard it was to get to that point. You probably weren't trying to shoot in a timed event as stressful as the one Front Sight puts you through with only 4 days of training under your belt. For a noob, that is damn hard. Even for experienced guys, it is damn hard. I was really stoked to discover a different trigger made it a heck of lot easier for me.

[dansgold]

So my cousin and I are headed to Front Sight to take the 4-Day Defense Handgun Course. It is my Christmas present to him. ...
... what I consider to be the most important aspect of a handgun, the trigger pull.

Bear in mind, he needs a gun that will help him do well during this course. ...

First of all ... you're an awesome cousin, what a cool gift!

I liked your post, but I have a somewhat different perspective as a fellow "Frontsighter". I would agree partially with your statement regarding the trigger being of utmost importance, but would add the phrase "all other factors being equal".

Unfortunately, all other factors are seldom equal.

I love my Glocks for instance ... excellent trigger to be sure. I consider them "perfection" as a weapon of war and for that use case. But, part of what I am going after with my learning plan is to train for what I am likely to carry a high percentage of the time. None of the Glocks work for me in this respect for two reasons: I find them too blocky for comfortable IWB carry, and find the "safe action" trigger - absent any other safety - a bad idea for that use case. I 've personally witnessed negligent discharges caused by clothing getting caught up in the Glock trigger guard, so it just "ooogs me out" a bit. YMMV ... but that's where I am coming from.

Imagining some kind of TEOTWAWKI/SHTF scenario, I would fully expect to have a Glock or Springfield XD carried openly on my hip, in addition to the shotgun or rifle I'd be carrying all the time. Prepping for civilian CCW in "peaceful times" is just a different scenario with different needs as far as I am concerned.

What I have done is to select a weapon that I feel comfortable IWB carrying all of the time, assured that the other factors (accuracy, reliability, trigger) are acceptable. For me, that's a Ruger SR9 ... fully acknowledging it's other (minor IMHO) shortcomings. I can imagine other brands/models would do the job just as well. Training with the SR9 seems to have lost me nothing in handing the Glock and Springfield ... the fact that my thumb is "trained" to sweep the (nonexistent) safety OFF does not appear to be affecting my accuracy or times adversely at all.

My other carry gun is a Bersa Thunder 380. Yep, that's DA/SA to be sure, but I don't imagine problems - given my level of training, and the expected short distances for use - carrying with the hammer down and therefore needing a DA on the first pull. If I am shooting longer distances, I have time to thumb back that hammer (or just take my time on that initial DA pull), from how I analyze that tactical scenario. I shoot revolvers for fun too ... so maybe DA just bugs me less. Again, YMMV.

I don't know you or your friend. If "having a good experience at Frontsight" is the primary goal ... then that single issue determines the range of your choices, and I'd support choosing ANY weapon which supports that goal. Understand that other factors might be of such value as to deserve equal consideration. In my case, I have chosen to train regularly with a more difficult to master weapon being that it is the weapon I will most likely have on my person at any given moment.

[HCz]

There nothing that says I need to back off when I present an argument that is more sound. Maybe my 'listing of thousand different ways' is actually manifestation of your lack of knowledge in the area. I find it interesting that you provided your argument on the basis on your experience and then when it is scrutinized it is peronalizing.

This is supposed to be friendly place where people can have a friendly debate.

Indeed, yet you are the one who called DA/SA shooters names in a rather extensive manner. Have you considered how that would be viewed to others? Here is a hint

Some guy gets a new gun and wants to tell the world how happy he is, and some meanspirited person has to come along and ruin his day. Not cool.

Paradiddle said it in more concise manner than I did, so you might want to re-read his post.

Again, your guide is not so better than alternatives that are out there. You wrote it with some bias(which you admitted) and the concensus is that training is more important than the trigger mechanism. Even if you changed the pistol, you did not pass the test at the FS. Ironically that shows that it is not the tool, but the shooter. You have to have skills to utilize such system. For new shooters, it is more imperative to gain such skills than to choose a trigger system. There are also many factors in choosing a pistol other than trigger. Grip, balance, reliability and so forth.

By the time you get the competition level, you're probably no longer a noob. You've clearly mastered the gun you have and maybe you no longer can remember how hard it was to get to that point.

Or maybe they know what really matters now instead of changing the tool.

As for arguing, you seem to have no problem coming back here to continue posting. You already said it twice or so in the form of 'I won't bite it' but seems like you enjoy coming here to discuss the issue

Dansgold has a good point. It is all other factors being equal(kind of like economic theory). The most effective way to overcome a lot of those factors is training in my opinion.

[missiondude]

Did you get the "graduate" sticker the second time around? Or did you miss it by a few points. Nothing more frustraiting than being just shy of getting that nod to continue on to a more advanced class. The required bar for the skill level to take the Advanced Handgun Course is set very high.

The first time you go into that test with so much confidence, having seen such drastic improvement over the past four days. It simply shocking how hard it is. The second time around you're a little pshcyed out by how hard you found it to be the last time. But in real life...it will just as hard if not harder.

First time I went, I dropped 48 pts in the shooting and 6 to 12 in the malfunctions using the TDA S&W 5906. IIRC Graduate required missing 38 points or less. Half the lost points were the headshot on the first double action pull. We also had 25mph winds at our back and on one draw, my cover blew back over the gun. Should have used a bigger rock in my pocket. Second time, lost 20 points on the shooting and 3 on the malfunctions. Missed Distinguished Graduate by 10 points. Having a good concealment vest helped as well. The 5.11 vest has the perfect weight to flip it out of the way on count one. I tried to do it on the cheap the first time I went with just a large shirt, and paid the price in 10 lost points...

Practice your malfunctions before you go again, it will help get you ready to do them fast. I tried to get my wife to practice them before we went, but she wanted to wait for the instruction.

[tacticalcity]

HCz, what is it gonna take for you and I to just agree to disogree? I said please. I asked nicely. You've said the exact same thing about 20 times now. I totally understand where you are coming from. I understand your point of view. I don't agree with it. But I understand it. Apparently lots of people agree with your point of view. So there are no more points to be scored here.

I both appologized and admitted I was out of line at times and made that apology very public. I've done everything I can to meet you in the middle.

I asked for a cease fire. I asked to play nice and make nice. I asked that a bunch of different times and different ways.

Is it not just not gonna happen? No matter what I say? No matter how much I try and make nice with you you're not gonna accept?

That makes no sense to me. I was raised to belive when somebody tries to make peace and means it, you accept.

Are we going to be stuck playing a game of Palestine & Israel for the rest of our lives? If so I call dibs on being the Israelis...those guys rock!

Missiondude, thanks for the tips. Will do. I'll focus on dry fire drills and clearing malfunctions, and I'll grab that same vest before I go. I get a decent price on them (when they are in stock). Congrats on the Graduate Level certificate. Is the Advanced Handgun Course next on the list or do you have other plans? Have looked at any of the other schools or are you a Front Sight guy from now on? I've been drooling over TFTT's course descriptions. Unfortunately the classes I am really anxious to take are not on their scheduel any time soon. Looking at a few others as well.

dansgold - Thanks, my cousin is pretty happy with me at the moment. My concern was he was going to run into the same issue Missiondude and I had during the final exam. I want him walking away with a 100% positive experience in the hopes he will want to keep taking these classes with me. I am sure I am just being the over protective big cousin. I think of him as a little brother, so I act like a big brother a lot. I do see your point. Under the right circumstances I see the how the small frame .380 trumps the trigger and action. Especiall since peopel often will it tucked into a places where a larger frame handgun would never go. For that usuage the need for a safety, and a trigger that offers a little more assurance against NDs would be a big plus. Those things often find themselves in ankle holsters, book bags and purses (though never a good idea without something covering the trigger - people do it anyways), and in all kinds of untraditional places. They make a nice backup peice do their small size and go where other guns can't. So I do agree everything has its time and place. I also agree there are other issues to consider such as how the grip fits your hand, just to name one. For example, the Baby Glock's finger grooves are too close together for my fat fingers to even remotely be comfortable, and even the new midsize Glocks have the grooves just hair too close together for me, while the full size Glocks fit me perfectly. My particular Glock 19 is a second generation glock without those grooves that sat in somebody's safe ever since he bought it. Not like you're gonna see those every day. Since everybody is different and not everyone uses their gun exactly the same way, some guns just might not work for them. I made the assumption, perhaps incorrectly, that if they where personally handling the guns in the store themselves that comfort would be obvious and so they would move on to they next one. I made the assumption that somethings would just be intuitive, where as figuring out how an action works if you've never held a gun would not be. If you wanted to, you could make a specific guide on how to determine the best grip...best sights...and on and on for each particular usage and need. You could even try and put them together in one big guide...but then you would end up in a knock down drag out fight like this thread turned into because no matter what you say somebody is going to adomently believe the exact opposite. Though this is the first time I've ever run into somebody who simply refused to make peace after several attempts to do so. Long story short, there is no gun out there that is perfect for everyone or every situation. I just wanted to make the process a little less of a crap shoot. Maybe that is just not possible. I would like to think that it is. I do know, I'm glad my cousin will not have the Beretta 96 I had the first time around. I personally believe he will have a better time at Front Sight and enjoy the whatever gun he buys as a result of my advice. Hes my cousin, I can advise him however I like. In the end, his being happy and safe is all that matters to me.

[missiondude]

[B]HCz[/B
Missiondude, thanks for the tips. Will do. I'll focus on dry fire drills and clearing malfunctions, and I'll grab that same vest before I go. I get a decent price on them (when they are in stock). Congrats on the Graduate Level certificate. Is the Advanced Handgun Course next on the list or do you have other plans? Have looked at any of the other schools or are you a Front Sight guy from now on? I've been drooling over TFTT's course descriptions. Unfortunately the classes I am really anxious to take are not on their scheduel any time soon. Looking at a few others as well.

I dont have a membership, I have been invited by high level membership guys for their birthday parties. I may take a few more classes on certificates, or buy a membership at some point. I would like to take the advanced handgun class, and the Combat Master prep. Doubt I would pass that one as there are only a few dozen who have, but the training would be great and get me as far as I could go. I go to Vegas all the time, so it is easy for me to plan some training around a Vegas trip...

[tacticalcity]

Go to Vegas a lot, eh? Must be nice. Vegas if fun...usually I don't end up setting aside much time for it. The class wears you out. This trip we included a full extra day just to enjoy it. Hopefully very little of that will be spent gambling vs say Golf or hitting the clubs.

[HCz]

what is it gonna take for you and I to just agree to disogree? I said please. I asked nicely. You've said the exact same thing about 20 times now. I totally understand where you are coming from. I understand your point of view. I don't agree with it. But I understand it. Apparently lots of people agree with your point of view. So there are no more points to be scored here.

I both appologized and admitted I was out of line at times and made that apology very public. I've done everything I can to meet you in the middle.

I asked for a cease fire. I asked to play nice and make nice. I asked that a bunch of different times and different ways.

Is it not just not gonna happen? No matter what I say? No matter how much I try and make nice with you you're not gonna accept?

That makes no sense to me. I was raised to belive when somebody tries to make peace and means it, you accept.

I say exact same things for 20 times because it is what it is. Since a lot of people agree with me and there is no points to be scored, no need for me to continue the discussion, but I do it because there needs to be a point where corrections has to be made.

As I said before, your guide is like having donuts(trigger mechanism) for lunch(shooting well) when there is steak(training) available. Donut may do it, but steak is more likely to be better choice for lunch. On top of that you didn't have problem calling names. Maybe I skipped over, but I don't recall explicit apology over your comments about 'kunckleheads' and 'politically correct' choice, or how you treated some members here.

You took a few training classes and consider yourself good. In fact you were cocky enough to say things like (post #18)

Look, you're clearly untrained. Take the course, or one like it, and get back to me.

and base your argument off of your experience. I really don't know who Iknownot is and what his experience is, but your comment alone indicates that you think too highly of yourself and has not had the benefit of more experience.

I don't care much for call for peace. I believe in actual action. If you want to make peace with me, then I'll notice it over time. I do spend sometime here on the forum so if you manage to get your stuff together and mature beyond your current state, I'll deal with it accordingly. But if you decide to come up with arguments that are not sound you can expect that I, if not someone else, will be there to put different opinion.

[dansgold]

I have observed that quite often people who take a couple of courses are so bowled over by the experience and pleased with their progress, that it causes them to have a somewhat unrealistic view of their experience/expertise.

Stated differently: If you are even a fairly experienced shooter, but have not been to Frontsight, Thunder Ranch, etc ... any good school ... you will have a tremendous experience upon taking your first class. Your ability will increase quite a bit in most cases.

This can lead to a false sense of expertise. I know that I have gone (quickly) through this phase myself. It's hard not to when you are outshooting an FBI field agent, a Marine, SWAT team members as I did in my classes. What brought me down to earth was the realization that I wasn't outshooting some firemen, a farmer, his 4 sons and a very petite district attorney's secretary.

ALL training should be consider a point in time and part of a continuing life-long process. There really isn't any "I've arrived now" moment.

[tacticalcity]

Honestly, I think you have me all wrong.

With regards to my skills, I am fully aware I suck. I am at the point where I am aware of my incompetence and need for improvement because my inability to perform at a level where I want to be has been demonstrated first hand. I am not about to challenge anybody at the range and lay money on it or anything stupid like that.

No matter how good I eventually get, I will always want to be better, and thus always feel that way. I'm always going to be able to find a role model who has reached a skill level for me to aspire to. I am always going to have room to get better. Right now...there is a lot of room for improvement...a massive amount of room for improvement.

That said. There is a huge difference between the mindset of somebody who has had some realistic training and somebody who only plinks at the range once or twice a year. There are some hard lessons learned, and there is nothing wrong with passing those lessons on.

Pointing that out, and pointing out the benifits of proper training, and stressing that the difference you can get even after one 4-Day class is HUGE is not a bad thing.

I am not claiming four days of training and you're ready to dropped off in Afghanistan. I am saying getting training is well worth the price tag these places charge. For the most part, not always, it is considerably better than the training you're going to get from a one day trip to the range with your local instructor. Some guys will be just as good. But some won't.

When I use terms like "suddenly I was a bad ***". I am trying to brag about how I cool I think I am. I am trying to say...it really worked and I was impressed their training more than just simply saying I was impressed can explain. I am trying to inspire people who are asking themselves whether or not such training makes the least bit of difference or is worth the cost of admission.

Frankly, I am amazed at the level of improvement you can acheive at these classes. I could have spent years on the range on my own and never seen the same degree of progress as I did after the first time I took that 4-Day class.

So honestly, I don't get why people get their feathers ruffled when I stess how much of a difference it makes, and just how exciting it is to see yourself make that kind of progress.

I am a huge believer in getting as much training as you can. I think it not only makes a huge difference in your skill level, it is a heck of a lot of fun.

That is not the same thing as my running around and yelling, "I am the king of the world".

Honestly I don't get why my saying the training is great and you'll love the training automatically translates to, I rule and you suck in people’s minds. I certainly don't believe I'm anything special with handgun. I keep spelling out just how bad I am, and people keep responding with posts saying they think I am acting like I am some sort of super stud.

It is as if saying I took the class, and thus know one or two things about that class, is the same thing in people’s minds as saying I am expert on all things and the best shot in the world or something. You so got the wrong guy there. I am fully aware of how poor a shot I am and how much room for improvement there is. Nobody has to tell me how much I suck. I got it.

All that said...I will improve. I will continue training. I will continue to have confidence in my ability to improve and ability to asses where I am with regards to said progress. I can and will get better. No amount of raining on my parade is gonna shake that confidence and self determination. Shame on those that would try. Shame on those that would say “you suck, go home and play it on the X-Box instead” Shame on those who say taking pride in ones progress makes them some kind of idiot or know it all. Shame on those who would criticize me for incourage others to get trained. Shame on those who would citicize me for sharing those experiences with people and saying good things about my instructors and where I trained.

I'm not saying you are that guy. But that guy exists. Run into him before. He's not a very nice guy at all (and I am not referring to anyone who posted here. Even my biggest critic on this thread clearly says training is important).

[nn3453]

tactical, it is the Internet. Don't take it so seriously or personally. People have different opinions. Often they state them in a way that may not sound friendly.

I think the biggest issue people had with what you posted was that you were making assertions about certain guns given your limited experience when the same guns are successfully used in competition and HD everyday. If you had made this an open ended discussion, i.e., "Hey guys, here is what I think based on my experience and personal preference, what do you guys think?" it would haven't resulted all the ruffled feathers. Instead you made blanket statements and created a handgun buyers guide.

Just. Let. It. Go. You made your point. Other folks made theirs. No reason to turn this into a soap opera.

[tacticalcity]

Now, I'm gonna make my original point in a less obnoxious way.

I personally found a Double Action trigger pull to be liability while training at Front Sight. Others had the same experience. The instructors pointed out to me that trying a Glock or a 1911 where there is no Double Action trigger pull to contend with would probably help. It did. The difference was night and day for me. No amount of shouting and accusations is going to change the fact that for me, and lots of other people I know, changing to a different trigger system improved our shooting.

As my very vocal critics have pointed out, with enough training, you can gain proficiency on any handgun. They also pointed out everyone has a different learning curve. Make no mistake, it takes an enormous amount of training to reach an acceptable level of proficiency, and I am a very long way from reaching a level of proficiency I would be happy with. I am very rusty, and even when I was at my best, there was miles, and miles of room left for improvement. I've never been more than a novice at best.

It is my personal opinion, that if you are new and if you can, you should avoid the double action trigger. It is not always possible, or practical. But when it is, I recommend it. Not everyone agrees. But my personal experience, and the opinion of the majority of instructors I have spoken with, bolsters my opinion.

There are times when it is either not possible or not practical. Some departments only allow handguns that have double action triggers for liability reasons. They want you to have plenty of time to change your mind before that trigger. You may find you want that as well and that concern alone makes you want one. Sometimes the primary purpose of the handgun, such as a backup gun that will almost certainly find itself stuffed in some very unusual places where something might snag the trigger for example) make having that Double Action trigger a very smart idea. There are plenty more examples where those came from.

Another poster pointed out that not all guns point the same. Meaning that when he draws, points in and fires, he is way off the mark. In order to correct it he has to change the way he is pointing in at the target in order to get on the mark, and in making that change, things feel really goofy and uncomfortable for him. He would pretty much have to work his butt off to get it work reliably for him, and it just not worth it. So he finds a gun that points in more naturally for how he already does things. Hopefully I am explaining that right. If you are brand new, that is probably less of an issue for you than if you are an experienced guy...as you're going to learn your technique based on the gun you buy, but for guys with experience it can be a real problem when switching to a new gun. Then again, maybe it's an issue right from the start. No way to know in advanced on that one without trying it...sadly.

As I stated earlier, there is a lot more to a trigger than just whether or not it is Double Action. That is just what people seemed to fixate on. Pull weight, creep, smoothness of the break, and the length of the reset (shorter is better) all matter. You are going to have to test them out hands on and side by side to figure out which is best for you. The purpose of my tests was to show you how to tell what kind of action it has, and where the reset is. It is up to you to decide if it feels good to you.

How a gun fits your hand is a real issue. The gun that fits my hand perfectly might not fit you at all. You may find the only gun at the shop that even comes close to feeling comfortable comes a Double Action trigger that cannot be bypassed. The it becomes a tougher call. Do you get the gun, and then invest a little bit more time learning to master it? Or do you keep looking for a gun that fits your hand and has a easier trigger to master?

Many here believe that the benefits of their guns outweigh the draw back in difficulty to master. Many believe the difference in ability to master the DA action trigger is either barely noticeable or non-existent. They might be right, but that certainly wasn’t my experience.

Take the Sig Sauer for example. That company makes one heck of gun. Craftsmanship is outstanding. Accuracy is outstanding. Reliability is outstanding. It is battle proven, and the choice of many military and law enforcement agencies and thus many people in the professions. It also fits most people’s hand great. It just fits right. Oh, and it is sexy as hell.

Most Sigs are only available in DA/SA. Not all of them. Most. Their safety is a de-cocker. That means if its is in your holster, then it is going to need to be de-cocked for safety reasons. That means your first shot is going to be a Double Action shot. That first trigger pull is going to be harder than the others. It is gonna require some additional trigger time to reach the same level of competence as say a 1911 that is single action only, or a Glock that has what is called a Safe Action Trigger. Does that matter to you? Even if it does, does it matter more than all those other positive aspects of the Sig Sauer?

There is no question the Sig Sauer is a great gun. If you have already mastered the Double Action / Single Action trigger system on another gun you're gonna make an easy transition. However, if you haven't...you may want to look at some other options.

[tipoc]

I admit I did not read through this entire thread, I could not bear to.

It is hard to watch a fella who is convinced he is right, yet who is so obviously wrong, and who refuses to listen to solid advice and useful suggestions respectfully made. I debated whether to say anything at all.

Tacticalcity, I encourage you to be less anxious to be competent. Take the time to learn. Now many of us can teach in the afternoon what we learned in the morning but doing so does not make us journeymen. Time and experience does the latter. I'm not trying to pick a fight or snipe at ya.

tipoc

[tacticalcity]

I owned up to being very rude to somebody offering a polite and respectful opinion. I snapped at him. It was totally out of line. I apologized for it. If you like I will go further and delete my offensive remark. I left it in place because I felt deleting it would be like trying to pretend I had not acted like a jerk. I did. I have to own that. As far as I can tell, that person accepted my apology. I hope so.

The posts that bothered me were the lets hunt down every post on Calguns.net I ever made and pick them apart line by line to prove our point that bothered me. It was the lets find anything and everything we can to shame him into submission approach that bothered me. More than anything it was not agreeing to disogree after I waved the white flag and called for a cease fire that bothered. Intentionally letting things get ugly, and not backing off after somebody points out it is getting ugly really bothers me.

So I do not consider calling attention the fact that is what is happening, and saying please back off, starting drama. My being a jerk to somebody who did not deserve it...that was definately starting drama.

As for my obesession with getting trained...I'm not really. It just sounds that way because it is on my immediate radar. My cousin and I are headed off to a course, and we're pretty excited about it. It should be a great time. So while I prefer everyone who owns a gun get some training so they don't have an accident, I am not in some sort of personal race to an imaginary finish line or anything like that. If it sounds like it, I certainly did not mean it that way.

I will agree I could be wrong that a DA/SA is not the most ideal handgun for a NOOB. I could even be wrong that a NOOB would have a harder time gaining profiency with it. I can't be wrong about the fact that for me, and a lot of people I trained with, it made a difference. I was there. So how could you presume to know otherwise? That's the part about your argument I don't get. The part where you tell me my own experience didn't happen.