Handgun Buying Guide Based On the Trigger Pull

[tacticalcity]

Yes, just like your cousin and you are nothing a like. Which is exactly the point the rest of us are trying to make, which you keep ignoring.

Here is where I acted like a complete jerk. It was wrong of me. No excuse for it. I sincerely apologize.

[DNA]

As far as cocked and locked, I believe you are missing 2 very important pistols to consider, both the Browning HiPower and the CZ75B. And with the CZ75B you have the second strike capability if there is a failure to fire.

And of course both have the upper 22lr conversions too, for inexpensive practice and maintainence of skills. Something else to consider with a newer shooter.

Dan

p.s. on the HiPowers you could also have the Cylinder and Slide conversion done which allows you co carry with cocked with the hammer down, similar to the older Daewoo 51s (S&W type pistols).

[Iknownot]

Look, you're clearly untrained. Take the course, or one like it, and get back to me.

Nobody on the planet is gonna shoot better having to master two different trigger pulls at once. It takes EVERYONE much longer to master both trigger pulls of that action than it would to master a single trigger pull. That is the part you are refusing to see.

It's not a matter of preferrence, or opinion, it is a fact.

Clearly I should have stuck with my earlier post and left it at that. It sounds like you have made up your mind. I hope your cousin enjoys whatever he ends up with and I hope you both enjoy your 4 day course.

[tacticalcity]

I've made up my mind because I've tried both in realistic circumstances. I learned the hard way. Spending a ton of money on a gun I hated. I don't want him or anyone else to have to go through that.

This course is very challenging. I've taken it with a DA/SA that could not be carried cocked and locked and it SERIOUSLY sucked. I cannot tell you how much harder it was, until I switched to a Glock...then it was REALLY easy by comparrison (the final exam is hard no matter what gun you have, but easier with the right gun).

I am talking from personal experience here. That experience was a very hard pill to swallow. Before that course I was IN LOVE with my Beretta. Nobody could convince me it was inferrior, I had to learn the hard way.

So I am sorry if it seems like I am getting frustrated with you. I used to believe exactly as you do. I had to find out on my own. I am not pissed off at you...and I pissed off at myself for having to learn the hard way which gun was best for me.

Not only did I take a loss on the gun when I sold it. I spent $2K on the class, plus airfare, plus rental car, plus hotel, plus food, plus ammo, plus accessories, only to find I was using the wrong damn gun. That is a very, very expensive lesson I had to learn.

So to have you say I'm totally wrong and completely invalidate that very expensive lesson, yeah...not making me happy.

[HCz]

I've trained with both. There is no way in hell you're gonna convince me otherwise. DA/SA is a hell of lot harder to master. I got pretty damn good...then realized I was torturing myself. Switched to Glock and instantly was a stud. Why handicap yourself right out of the gate when there is no need to. There are tons of guns that allow you to only have to deal with one trigger pull. One of those is bound to fit is hand and shoot well for him.

It is not 'a hell of lot harder to master'. You are exaggerating it.

As for the classes mentioned, they are not gonna let him try out 10-15 different handguns at once are they? It really doesn't help him decide which gun he likes best. And unless he takes one of their courses first, those ranges won't let him work from a holster. So while, yes there are closer courses, it's not really the point.

If you are at such training places, your job is to learn different tactics and technics, not to go there and figure out which pistol fits your hand. If you want to figure out which trigger works best for you, you can go to a range and try different guns. To figure out doesn't require drawing from holster.

So why would he want to pay to take a different course? It doesn't make sense.

One thing I notice about Frontsite attendees is that they don't know better. Two schools I mentioned above have far better reputation among those who have 'been there done that'. You already paid for the course, so might as well as go, but don't get too caught up with the idea that they are the top schools.

I am talking from personal experience here. That experience was a very hard pill to swallow. Before that course I was IN LOVE with my Beretta. Nobody could convince me it was inferrior, I had to learn the hard way.

Talking from my personal experience, my DA/SA CZ P-01 had no problem going against Glocks and 1911s in such courses.

[tacticalcity]

DNA, thanks for the additional suggestions.

I am sure there are a lot of guns I am not listing, and completely unaware of that function exactly like he needs.

That is why included the instructions on how to test the two different types of triggers to see if the gun he likes in the store qualifies.

I don't have brand loyalty. I don't care which gun he gets, just long as it is not fighting him the entire time. He only has 4 days of instruction. I don't want all four of those to be spent fighting with the trigger. I want him to be able to master it before he leaves.

The part you guys are unaware of is that he is Bounty Hunter. People will be shooting back!!!

[Paradiddle]

Look, you're clearly untrained. Take the course, or one like it, and get back to me.

Nobody on the planet is gonna shoot better having to master two different trigger pulls at once. It takes EVERYONE much longer to master both trigger pulls of that action than it would to master a single trigger pull. That is the part you are refusing to see.

It's not a matter of preferrence, or opinion, it is a fact.

If you disogree, you're not training right!

I've trained with both. There is no way in hell you're gonna convince me otherwise. DA/SA is a hell of lot harder to master. I got pretty damn good...then realized I was torturing myself. Switched to Glock and instantly was a stud. Why handicap yourself right out of the gate when there is no need to. There are tons of guns that allow you to only have to deal with one trigger pull. One of those is bound to fit is hand and shoot well for him.

As for the classes mentioned, they are not gonna let him try out 10-15 different handguns at once are they? It really doesn't help him decide which gun he likes best. And unless he takes one of their courses first, those ranges won't let him work from a holster. So while, yes there are closer courses, it's not really the point.

So yes, I mispoke about no classes being closer (none of those are really close). But they won't help him pick out the right gun. They are not gonna let him try out a bunch of different options, there gonna make him pick one. I shouldn't have gotten side tracked there. Front Sight is 100% paid for already, by me. So why would he want to pay to take a different course? It doesn't make sense.

How could you deduce that this poster is "clearly untrained" I haven't read anything in his posts that says he hasn't attened one, or more "tactical" classes. Hell - he could compete for all you know. Sounds like you like to "know everything".

I for one compete with my CZ 75B. Which I decock and shoot DA/SA because I would hate to run it against the 1911 guys and suffer for my minor power. I've had a trigger job done and it's a smoth as silk with a light and crisp single action pull. I'm very fast with it and suffer no issues with the DA/SA thing. THAT has to do with practice/training - you'll learn how to handle your pistol.

While I see what you are trying to do for your cousin with the "list", you are really steering him toward a SA only type pistol - what if he hates the grip angle on the Glock (like I do). It just seems like you may want him to try stuff out first before buying.

Jeff

[tacticalcity]

HCz,

I'm not exhadurating. It is that much harder to master.

I totally agree those places are not there to help you decide which gun you want. That was my point. I was trying to explain that a the typical california gun range that rents guns is not going to provide a realistic enviorment to compare different guns because of how strict our ranges are. Bench rest only, no holsters, no controlled pairs, and on and on.

As for Front Sight, its rep is from their heavy marketing...more than they technique they teach. The method is solid, the marketing to buy a membership is what is off putting...they push it way to hard. I agree, there are lots of great schools out there, and I personally will be hitting a lot of them up this year.

As for doing just fine with a DA/SA that can't be cocked and locked...good for you. But why should he have to deal with it if he doesn't have to? Why not start out ahead of the curve if he can? I had a terrible time trying to do what you did, as has everyone I've ever talked to about it. They all agree it's better to skip that pain if you can.

[Paradiddle]

I've made up my mind because I've tried both in realistic circumstances. I learned the hard way. Spending a ton of money on a gun I hated. I don't want him or anyone else to have to go through that.

This course is very challenging. I've taken it with a DA/SA that could not be carried cocked and locked and it SERIOUSLY sucked. I cannot tell you how much harder it was, until I switched to a Glock...then it was REALLY easy by comparrison (the final exam is hard no matter what gun you have, but easier with the right gun).

I am talking from personal experience here. That experience was a very hard pill to swallow. Before that course I was IN LOVE with my Beretta. Nobody could convince me it was inferrior, I had to learn the hard way.

So I am sorry if it seems like I am getting frustrated with you. I used to believe exactly as you do. I had to find out on my own. I am not pissed off at you...and I pissed off at me that I used to believe it. I am chewing out my past self, not you.

Not only did a take a loss on the gun when I sold it. I spent $2K on the class, plus airfare, plus rental car, plus hotel, plus food, plus ammo, plus accessories, only to find I was using the wrong damn gun. That is a very, very expensive lesson I had to learn.

So to have you say I'm totally wrong and completely invalidate that very expensive lesson, yeah...not making me happy.

Don't base you "hard swallowed pill of experience" on the completely crappy trigger of the Beretta 92. Seriously there are MUCH better DA/SA handguns available.

I would also say that any serious competitor or carrier of a gun should have some work done on it - a nice trigger job and perhaps a reliability package. Just have a good smith go through it and smooth out the rough spots so it runs all the time.

My own .02.

[tacticalcity]

Jeff...you are completely correct. That was 100% out of line. I am sorry.

[Paradiddle]

HCz,
As for doing just fine with a DA/SA that can't be cocked and locked...good for you. But why should he have to deal with it if he doesn't have to? Why not start out ahead of the curve if he can? I had a terrible time trying to do what you did, as has everyone I've ever talked to about it. They all agree it's better to skip that pain if you can.

As HCz stated I don't consider a good DA/SA trigger behind the 8 ball - and I certainly am much faster and more accurate with my CZ then any Glock I've ever shot.

[tacticalcity]

I would also say that any serious competitor or carrier of a gun should have some work done on it - a nice trigger job and perhaps a reliability package. Just have a good smith go through it and smooth out the rough spots so it runs all the time.

My own .02.

Why deal with it all?

I don't get the defense of DA/SA that can't be carried cocked and locked? Any way you slice it, it does handicap you. What does it matter if that handicap is only a little bit, or a lot. It is still a handicap.

You have 1.5 seconds or less to draw, fire a controlled pair, and hit center mass in the final exame of these courses. Why intentionally have a hard first trigger pull? It makes no sense to me?

[HCz]

HCz,

I'm not exhadurating. It is that much harder to master.

Then you obviously is not training correctly. I started out with SA pistol, but am in DA/SA mode for sometime.

I totally agree those places are not there to help you decide which gun you want. That was my point. I was trying to explain that a the typical california gun range that rents guns is not going to provide a realistic enviorment to compare different guns because of how strict our ranges are. Bench rest only, no holsters, no controlled pairs, and on and on.

At a typical gun range that rents, you can still try the difference of DA/SA pull without going tactical. Here's another food for thought. If the shooter is not aware of how safely shoot a controlled pair, what is the chance that he will know the difference of DA and SA trigger pull? In realiy, P226/229 and Berettas has been putting down criminals without problem. Also, how is bench resting a realistic training you so talk about?

As for Front Sight, its rep is from their heavy marketing...more than they technique they teach. The method is solid, the marketing to buy a membership is what is off putting...they push it way to hard. I agree, there are lots of great schools out there, and I personally will be hitting a lot of them up this year.

There are many other places that offer just as good if not better teaching without the marketing. Hopefully you will realize it after you take some better classes.

As for doing just fine with a DA/SA that can't be cocked and locked...good for you. But why should he have to deal with it if he doesn't have to? Why not start out ahead of the curve if he can? I had a terrible time trying to do what you did, as has everyone I've ever talked to about it. They all agree it's better to skip that pain if you can.

Maybe he is different from you. You based your opinion on your small experience, I based mine on my experience. So you should let him decide. You can give all the talk about trigger pull, but there are differences between you and him.

[tacticalcity]

As HCz stated I don't consider a good DA/SA trigger behind the 8 ball - and I certainly am much faster and more accurate with my CZ then any Glock I've ever shot.

Can you carry that CZ cocked and locked? Some you can, right?.

I am equally fast with an HK USP v1 carried cocked and locked as I am with a Glock. I get that speed because the only trigger pull I have to deal with is the single action pull wich is super smooth and light. But the time it takes to disengage the safety slows me down. So at the end of the day I am dead even with both handguns. At the end of the day I went with the Glock for this trip because I picked up a really nice one for a great price. I would have been just as happy going their with the USP.

It's not the DA/SA itself I object to. I only object to it if you cannot carry it cocked and locked.

This is the only trip to a school like this that is 100% free for him (aside for the gun) so probably the only one we'll be taking together. I want to listen to him brag about how great he is doing, rather than listen to him complain about how hard it is. If he is doing well, I will want to better so he doesn't get to tease me about it. I don't want to spend all my time feeling bad for him, and trying to help him fix it.

As for accuracy, that is EXTREMELY relative. Are you only allowing yourself only seconds, working from the holster, working at varied distances, firing controlled pairs, or are you working from behind a bench and taking your time and only firing one DA pull for every 20 or so single action pulls. There is a big difference.

If you've truly mannaged to master both trigger pulls, and get consistent groupings...great...you are a better man than the rest of us. That is very hard to do. Especially if your gun also has a safety you have to disengage before you can fire, I don't know if it does, some don't. But good for you! I couldn't do it....don't want to do it...and don't want my cousin to have to suffer through that pain like I did.

As for trigger jobs...usually a good idea. You have to be careful. Go too light, without a safety, and you create a dangerous gun that could go off when you don't want it to. NDs suck! But yes, there are lots of great trigger upgrades out there. Glockworx makes a really popular upgrade for the glock, but it is pricy even before you get a professional to install it for you.

The USP I had was so light and smooth in SA (since I carry it cocked and locked its the only pull I have to worry about) that idea of having anyone touch that trigger would be an unforgivable sin. The problem was not trigger related, it was having to disengage the safety. For me, it and my Glock are neck and neck.

[Paradiddle]

Why deal with it all?

I don't get the defense of DA/SA that can't be carried cocked and locked? Any way you slice it, it does handicap you. What does it matter if that handicap is only a little bit, or a lot. It is still a handicap.

You have 1.5 seconds or less to draw, fire a controlled pair, and hit center mass in the final exame of these courses. Why intentionally have a hard first trigger pull? It makes no sense to me?

Every Glock competitor I know has had a trigger job to get rid of the long reset and gritty factory feel. Every 1911 guy I know has done a trigger job. It's not like it's a "problem" - I think you are overstating that part.

PS - my CZ can be carried cocked and locked so it's northing personal with me.