Handgun Buying Guide Based On the Trigger Pull

[HCz]

Nope. I'm going back and finding your comments so I can build my case.

The 'yelling' is what you earned by posting things that are not exactly a common sense. If someone wants to buy a gun they will look at all things if they are worth their weight in salt. While you may have a good intention, your execution is flawed. Your argument is that you want to make it easier for novices to do well. If novices want to do well, it is matter of training. Trying to stack the deck in one's favor will only get you so far. Training is what will make the difference. Again, it is not the tool, but the one who uses it.

Trigger resets are emphasized not because it's the difference between DA/SA and SAO, but because a lot of shooters, after firing each round tend to release the trigger all the way out. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter what the trigger mechanism is, trigger reset happens after the shot is fired. So trying to use tigger reset is not exactly the different point between DA/SA and SAO mechanism

Removing obstacle sounds good, but as I mentioned earlier, why not use guns that have far less obstacles? Because they may not be practical. The trigger pulls of most mass produced semiautos are something that the shooter has to learn to deal with. Stock guns come with certain amount of pulls, and there are no problems of people using them. Lowering the bar is not going to produce better shooters. The trigger pull can be mastered and should be mastered. Finding the solution by altering the tool is not same as improving one's ability.

Your guide is less about telling people to compare triggers than showing your preference for a certain type. If you want newcomers to decide, they'd need unbiased guidance which yours is not.

Again it's the trigger pull skill that matters, not just the trigger.

[tacticalcity]

Training is what will make the difference.

I agree, regardless of what gun you have training is the key. Just buying a gun and tossing it in the safe is a terrible idea.

As for the Sig 250, the trigger requires you to completely release the trigger in order for it to reset. So you're making my case for me against that particular firearm. Lots of DA/SA guns have very short trigger resets...which is great. I am not saying they don't. I'm also not saying DA/SA is a bad thing. I just prefer the safety doesn't automatically decock them.

I agree the type of guns I prefer may not always be an option, because some departments issue a specific gun. The DA trigger pull is political correct and great from a liability stand point. Gives a little bit of time to change ones mind after you start to pull it. If your goal is to eventually get hired on with a specific department, and you are trying to get a headstart on your training, it would be a good idea to make sure you are training with the same gun you'll be issued.

I agree I am biased towards specific trigger / action types. Not just one, but a few different ones. I am biased towards them because I believe they are easier to learn on. But I am not above trying everything out and changing my mind. I have yet to find a DA/SA with a safety that automatically decocks it that I like better than the USP v1 DA/SA trigger that can be carried cocked and locked. But I haven't tried every single gun out there. Someday I may find one that makes me eat crow and completely change my mind. It could happen.

My goal is to help new guys find a gun they are going to be able to learn on easier. I am an advocated getting proper training. I believe training is critical. The more the better. Plus it is fun.

My guide also says to actually go there and compare the different pulls, and resets and how to test the two different systems so you're not just looking at the first pull, but the follow up pull. So by using it, they get a feel for each guns trigger. So while I show preferrence towards the DA/SAs that can be carried cocked and lock and towards guns that have the same trigger pull each time, and towards triggers with a very short rest, they will be able to feel the different pulls themselves and decide for themselves which is best. They are grown adults. They can and will make up their own minds which is best, and may find they don't agree with my conclusions.

Compare that to guys just picking a gun based on looks, which is what most people do the first time they buy a gun, and I think it is a positive not a negative.

So yes, I am biased. I admit it. My reasons for being biased are based on some pretty solid first hand experience. So I don't like the eact same gun you like. But at least my guide teaches them how to examine a trigger pull in detail. Most noobs would have no clue how to do that without being told. Store clears are even remotely helpful. They just hand you the gun and hope you buy it. They don't care if they gun right next to it might be a better fit for you. They just want to move inventory.

It's not like I said only these guns will do and then listed them. I included step by step guides to examining different trigger types in detail. So they have to get hands on experience playing with those triggers. Sure I listed my favorites, but I also said there are lots of guns out there I have yet to try out and gave them them a little insight on how to examine them on their own.

In the end, they are gonna do what they want. You obviously drew different conclusions than I did when you tried out all these guns. You've obviously tested out Glocks, 1911s, Sigs and so on. They might come to your conclusion as well. At least they would have done more than just examine how they looked.

And for the record...owning a Glock, USP, 1911, Walther P99QA and on and on is not "lowering the bar". Come on? There are 1911s out there that are not just great handguns put pure works of art and mechanical genious. So are you trying to say that only somebody who has mastered both the DA and SA trigger pull is a good shooter and that people who use Glocks and 1911s suck? I can understand liking you guy and taking pride in that fact that you mastered it, when others like myself found it hard to do. But saying everyone who shoots a 1911 or Glock is inferior to you is pretty damn cocky.

[HCz]

As for the Sig 250, the trigger requires you to completely release the trigger in order for it to reset. So you're making my case for me against that particular firearm.

So? You want to argue about DA/SA but try to drag in DAO pistol?

Lots of DA/SA guns have very short trigger resets...which is great. I am not saying they don't. I'm also not saying DA/SA is a bad thing. I just prefer the safety doesn't automatically decock them.

Trigger resets and decocker are not effecting each other. So what's the point?

I agree the type of guns I prefer may not always be an option, because some departments issue a specific gun. The DA trigger pull is political correct and great from a liability stand point. Gives a little bit of time to change ones mind after you start to pull it.

Again, revolvers had DA pulls, SIG came to US in early 80s as well as other DA/SA guns. It wasn't about politcal correctness. In fact if it was about political correctness, Glock and S&W M&P would be out of the police market by now.

My guide also says to actually go there and compare the different pulls, and resets and how to test the two different systems so you're not just looking at the first pull, but the follow up pull. So by using it, they get a feel for each guns trigger. So while I show preferrence towards the DA/SAs that can be carried cocked and lock and towards guns that have the same trigger pull each time, they will be able to feel the different pulls themselves and decide for themselves which is best. They are grown adults. They can and will make up their own minds which is best, and may find they don't agree with my conclusions.

So you basically admit that your guide is biased, which may not be the best thing for the first time buyers. a good guide allows each individual to think before they make decision. It shows them many differences, and then let's the buyer decide. That does not mean you cut off something you don't like.

Compare that to guys just picking a gun based on looks, which is what most people do the first time they buy a gun...and I think it is a positive not a negative.

That's like saying 'Let's have donuts for lunch instead of steak'. You may be satifisfying the need, but there are better ways to do it. You give them some average, if not mediocre advice and say "compared to nothingness this is better" when there are more available.

It's not like I said only these guns will do and then listed them. I included step by step guides to comparing different trigger types. So they have to get hands on experience playing with those triggers.

your guide has just about as much detail as what gun shop clerk can say in a few minutes.

edit:

And for the record...owning a Glock, USP, 1911, Walther P99QA and on and on is not "lowering the bar". Come on? There are 1911s out there that are not just great handguns put pure works of art and mechanical genious.

Nice job trying to take things out of context. My exact words were

Stock guns come with certain amount of pulls, and there are no problems of people using them. Lowering the bar is not going to produce better shooters. The trigger pull can be mastered and should be mastered.

Your argument was to remove obstacles, which generally means easier use. As I said in my own quote, stock guns generally have triggers that are not hinderance to its use, and the imporatance is on training. yet you take it out of context and twist it. Can better triggers help? Yes, but only if you are capable of utilizing it. Unfortnately that takes training which is more important than trying to figure out what the trigger pull is.

So are you trying to say that only somebody who has mastered both the DA and SA trigger pull is a good shooter and that people who use Glocks and 1911s suck? I can understand liking you guy and taking pride in that fact that you mastered it, when others like myself found it hard to do. But saying everyone who shoots a 1911 or Glock is inferior to you is pretty damn cocky.

Keep twisting? There are people who use SAO and do well, and there are people who use DA/SA and do just as well. But trying to stack the deck in favor by obsessing on the trigger is not going to let the beginner learn about shooting any better than using other trigger mechanism. So nice attempt to put words in my mouth. And besides, who is the one that said this?

Now, somebody who knows the difference in actions...and for whatever reason chooses a DA/SA and spends the time needed to master that system...they are a stud!

[tacticalcity]

I already asked you politely to back off and just agree to disagree. Please do so. Nothing either of us says is going to change the others mind. We might as well be arguing over politics or religion. It is pointless. Constantly listing the thousand different ways you think I am an idiot is a personal attack, not a discussion. I don't appreciate it. I am trying not to take it personally, but you are not making it easy. So please, let’s just agree we don't agree with each other and move on.

[Paradiddle]

HCz - stop trying to introduce logic into this thread.

Tacticalcity - if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[BunnySlayer]

Good trigger control has little to do with working from a holster, controled pairs and all that tactical stuff. Good basic trigger control starts with practicing both dry and with ammo until it's second nature and your getting tight groups on paper. Then worry about drawing and doing double taps. Teach him to walk before trying to sprint. What everyones telling you is correct. Rent borrow and beg as many guns as you can and make your decision based on that. Othwise you risk having a really expensive safe queen that some gun salesman thinks is cool.

[Renshai]

My Mark series USP was the worst trigger pull I ever had. If ti wasn't an issue weapon I never would have carried it. I promptly "traded" it for the Sig220. My best trigger is actually on my XD45C. I'm had tons of 1911's, sigs, h&k's and A host of others. It really is practice practice practice. I can shoot a DA/SA as well as a SAO or a DAO once i'm used to the trigger. THere is no difference. Once you "get" the trigger, its all about practice. Get one that feels good in the hand, and practice. Period. The rest is useless fluff

[Ike Arumba]

TacticalCity - you have mentioned the P99QA a few times, which leaves me wondering if you dislike the P99AS. If you don't decock the AS, its first trigger pull is light like the following SA pulls, but just longer. Do you consider that to be a problem?

[maxicon]

Man, you guys sure are going on and on about personal preferences...

I'll just say I shoot my CZ75B very well, and sold my Glock 17 because I didn't like it and it didn't point well for me. I shoot my Ruger P95 better than I shot the Glock, regardless of trigger differences.

There's more to handgun performance than any one aspect or component - that's why there are so many models available.

Get a gun that points well for you, then practice, practice, practice.

[chickenfried]

sorry to break it to ya buddy

I'll just say I shoot my CZ75B very well, and sold my Glock 17 because I didn't like it and it didn't point well for me. I shoot my Ruger P95 better than I shot the Glock, regardless of trigger differences.

There's more to handgun performance than any one aspect or component - that's why there are so many models available.

Get a gun that points well for you, then practice, practice, practice.

but read below vvvvvvv

[missiondude]

I will agree that a TDA gun such as the S&W 5906 is going to be harder to use at FS due to the decocker headache. I took the 4 day with one and figure I could have passed with a single action gun. Lost the majority of my points on the headshots with the long hard trigger press. Took it the second time with a single action 4006. Had the safety to deal with (up and forward), but by the end of the first day, it was never even remotely an issue. Almost made DG this time around. I would guess that a safe action such as Glock, or a single action such as the 1911 would be the easiest to master, but then it comes down to what you like and what fits your hand. If I had to recommend a gun for a new shooter that I had no information on, I would say Glock 34, or S&W M&P 9mm Pro. Since the PRO is not on Cali's list, that makes it the Glock. BTW, I dont even own a Glock, just have shot a couple, and believe that it would be best for a new shooter at Front Sight...

My wife tried out about 8 different guns before deciding what to buy before we went to FS. She did not buy the Glock, as I think she figured I would always be borrowing it to shoot Production in USPSA..

Have a great time while you are there and stay HYDRATED!!!

[tacticalcity]

Once somebody says...ok cool...lets agree to disagree the conversation is over.

This is supposed to be friendly place where people can have a friendly debate. It's not permitted for it turn into a personal attack or for it to get ugly. If does, it is your responsibility to man up and make peace and apologize if necessary. I am very quick to apologize when I cross that line. Even if I know I was right, if I am rude...I man up and say I am sorry. Because it is important, and because the mods have educated me that not doing so results in accounts getting suspended.

I am totally fine with him and you disagreeing with my very arrogant and opinionated views. I am not OK with the onslaught continuing after I wave the white flag and call for a cease fire.

It's called thread crapping since I started the thread, and it's against the rules. It's also just plain rude and uncalled for. I wouldn't do it to his or your threads. I might say I disagreed, but if you started the thread...I would respect that and not let it get out of hand. The moment you said enough...I would back off and even say sorry as odds are I did not realize you were taking it personally. If I caught somebody thread crapping, I would come to the person being abused defense...simply because they were being abused. It wouldn't matter to me if I disagreed with their original view point...I would defend them simply because it is wrong to be treated poorly. That's not why we are here.

And thank you for having my back missiondude. Somebody who had the same experience I did, taking the same course, and agreed they had the same issue I did and came to the same conclusions about it, finally spoke up. I appreciate it...especially since this crowd has gotten so hostile. I hope they are kind enough to leave you be.

I can still sleep at night knowing some of you guys don't agree with me that some triggers are better than others and they make a big difference in how quickly you will be able to master that gun. It's not gonna keep me awake at night. Knowing you think it's ok to keep pressing the offensive after someone tries to make peace...that breaks my heart. Spirited debate is one thing...personal attacks are another. Joking and jesting is one thing...intentionally trying to anger someone is another.

As for the Walther P99AS...I just haven't had a chance to try it yet. I would very much like to. I have had a chance to try the P99QA and liked it. Based on what you are describing it sounds like I would probably like the P99AS very much. There are hundreds of guns out there I am sure I would love, I just haven't had the opportunity to test them out first hand. That is why I included the steps I use to see what kind of trigger a gun has. Regardless of whether or not you agreed with my conclusions those steps will show you how to evaluate the trigger pull weight of both the first pull and follow-up pulls, the reset, and tell you what kind of safety if any the gun has and give you a hands on feel for what it's gonna be like on before you part with your cash. Can't hurt to know that stuff in advanced, even if you think the type of action is unimportant. Knowledge is power. The more you know about what exactly you are buying the better.

And I am not sure where people are getting the idea the only gun I like is a Glock. I keep saying I like lots of guns and have no brand loyalty. I am not a Glock sycophant. Sure I love my Glock, just like I loved my USP and hopefully I love the next I discover at the local gun shop.

If you tried something and didn’t like it. I respect your opinion. If you never tried it yet feel the need to bash it out of hand, I don’t. How many of those INSERT GUN NAME HERE sucks posts are by guys who actually tried them? Very few I bet. Yet you see them all the time. Some guy gets a new gun and wants to tell the world how happy he is, and some meanspirited person has to come along and ruin his day. Not cool. Most of my snippy comments are in response to such posts. Coming to the defense of some guy getting based. If and when I am out of line...I appologize. So keep reading a few posts after the one you took offense to chickenfried...I appologized after making that statement. Once I realized I was being a jerk, I said I was sorry.

Is that what this is really about? You don't accept the appology? Maybe you didn't see it? I hope so. I would hope it's not about bashing someone just because you disogree with them. I am the first to say that knee jerk reponse is a hard impulse to fight, but I am also the first to admit when I did it and say sorry.

[Paradiddle]

Once somebody says...ok cool...lets agree to disagree the conversation is over.

This is supposed to be friendly place where people can have a friendly debate. It's not permitted for it turn into a personal attack or for it to get ugly. If does, it is your responsibility to man up and make peace and apologize if necessary. I am very quick to apologize when I cross that line. Even if I know I was right, if I am rude...I man up and say I am sorry. Because it is important, and because the mods have educated me that not doing so results in accounts getting suspended.

I am totally fine with him and you disagreeing with my very arrogant and opinionated views. I am not OK with the onslaught continuing after I wave the white flag and call for a cease fire.

It's called thread crapping since I started the thread, and it's against the rules. It's also just plain rude and uncalled for. I wouldn't do it to his or your threads. I might say I disagreed, but if you started the thread...I would respect that and not let it get out of hand. The moment you said enough...I would back off and even say sorry as odds are I did not realize you were taking it personally. If I caught somebody thread crapping, I would come to the person being abused defense...simply because they were being abused. It wouldn't matter to me if I disagreed with their original view point...I would defend them simply because it is wrong to be treated poorly. That's not why we are here.

And thank you for having my back missiondude. Somebody who had the same experience I did, taking the same course, and agreed they had the same issue I did and came to the same conclusions about it, finally spoke up. I appreciate it...especially since this crowd has gotten so hostile. I hope they are kind enough to leave you be.

I can still sleep at night knowing some of you guys don't agree with me that some triggers are better than others and they make a big difference in how well you will shoot with that gun. It's not gonna keep me awake at night. Knowing you think it's ok to keep pressing the offensive after someone tries to make peace...that breaks my heart. Spirited debate is one thing...personal attacks are another. Joking and jesting is one thing...intentionally trying to anger someone is another.

As for the Walther P99AS...I just haven't had a chance to try it yet. I would very much like to. I have had a chance to try the P99QA and liked it. There are hundreds of guns out there I am sure I would love, I just haven't had the opportunity to test them out first hand. That is why I included the steps I use to see what kind of trigger a gun has. Regardless of whether or not you agreed with my conclusions those steps will show you how to evaluate the trigger pull weight of both the first pull and follow-up pulls, the reset, and tell you what kind of safety if any the gun has and give you a hands on feel for what it's gonna be like on before you part with your cash. Can't hurt to know that stuff in advanced, even if you think the type of action is unimportant. Knowledge is power. The more you know about what exactly you are buying the better.

[maxicon]

sorry to break it to ya buddy


but read below vvvvvvv

Originally Posted by tacticalcity

It's not a matter of preferrence, or opinion, it is a fact.

If you disogree, you're not training right!

Well, heck, who am I to disogree with tacticalcity?!? I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. All that experience and training... wasted... I'm going to need therapy!

After that, I'll get rid of all my guns and replace them with Gloxx. Shoot, I wish I hadn't sold the one I owned - here it was me not fitting the gun, all along, and not the gun not fitting me.

Thanks for the heads-up! Good to know there are people so much smarter than I am out there!

Be looking for a lifetime collection of formerly fine but now unusable guns for sale cheap...

[Iknownot]

Not for nothing, but the guy has apologized. On top of that, he has obviously made up his mind. Attacking him or making fun of him is kind of pointless and less than nice.

Better to just leave this thread alone (or add your own view if you have one and haven't stated it already).

I think enough people have posted their views that anyone coming into the thread and reading for themselves can decide who is making more sense, but turning the thread into an attack at this point, isn't particularly useful.

Just my 2 cents.