Glock 19 Obsolete?

[Stumpfenhammer]

I am still utterly confused why people needs optics on a CCW gun. Are irons that bad? the whole point is to conceal, i do not want an RMR or even smaller optic sitting on my waist while driving around, carrying stuff, sitting or standing up...


cool for range toys or the battle loadout, or home defense in the night? but really i EDC for a while and iron sights still beat optics, and carrying everyday at no point do i think "well in case things get sketchy here i would feel alot better if i had my red dot"

Like go to any gangsters in the hood and ask them if the optics have made their kill rate any higher LOL.....dead *** you will never see optics on the waists of your average gang banger in any california city and those kids are actually using them IRL.


It just seems stupid, one more thing to break. Luckily i can still hit tight groups with a naked slide without any sights, but im still not putting optics on any gun i intend to CC.

Let's take the gangbanger analogy off the plate: The fact that gangbangers have a high body count despite poor marksmanship, tactics, and often, sub-optimal hardware, doesn't mean that they are more proficient or as proficient as they would be with better hardware and training, it just means they don't have the same reservations that you do with regards to murder and mayhem. It's somewhat akin to comparing the Taliban to the U.S. Army and inferring that red-dots and the training in how to use them wouldn't make the Taliban more effective, or that the Army is wasting their time with red dots because the Taliban killed plenty of people without them.

Red dots are faster than iron sights (once you have put in the time to be able to use them effectively). Red dots make it easier to hit small targets at distance, like that piece of a knee hanging out around a barricade. They come with a couple downsides over iron sights, but overall they are an upgrade.

Grip length and thickness are the biggest issues when it comes to concealment, a red dot doesn't make my pistol (noticeably) less concealable. For self-defense under seven yards red dots and iron sights are about even, but as distance and accuracy requirements increase, red dots pull ahead.

Gangbangers shouldn't be your standard for progress.

[SharedShots]

At what distance does it become something other than self defense? When speaking about red dots vs irons that is important. When it comes to speed, faster than what and by whom? Within the distance you are likely to be able to claim self defense front sight and target is what will count. Within the distance a jury will agree to self defense if you can't be effective and very fast with a front sight/target some practice is in order.

A CCW shooting at arms, knees sticking out from barricades? What are you doing there, in some firefight and it's to the point you're shooting at extremities? If the bad guy has barricaded themselves that is your clue to bug out, not continue some gun battle. If you can't see their gun but you can see their knee or leg that means they aren't shooting at you, get out, you are not the police. Where are these gun battles taking place?

[Cowboy T]

At 25 yards, I've got no problem using irons on a handgun. If you're a cop pursuing a suspect, then I could see that "knee hanging out the barricade", but not for a self-defense scenario. Self-defense, you're aiming for center-mass. Anything beyond 25 yards would likewise be questionable for self-defense, with one possible exception being a roving gang approaching your house. In that case, I'd want a semi-automatic rifle with a 2x to 4x power scope anyway (maybe a 2-7x33). But I could still do it with irons on the rifle, too.

In any case, the very notion that a Glock 19 is somehow obsolete is itself obsolete.

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Yep, the most common do-everything handgun in America is obsolete.

Hogwash.

[rodralig]

Grip length and thickness are the biggest issues when it comes to concealment, a red dot doesn't make my pistol (noticeably) less concealable. For self-defense under seven yards red dots and iron sights are about even, but as distance and accuracy requirements increase, red dots pull ahead.

I know I am preaching to choir, but wanted to add that...

On the assumption that the other fundamentals are sound. RDS aids in aiming/calling shots, to the extent that say, we are able to hold the gun sufficient enough to the level of accuracy necessary.

Being able to focus on the threat/target with both eyes open while superimposing the red dot is theoretically much better for defensive shooting as well as competition. Shooting iron sights you're eyes can only focus on one thing, while you're lining up 3 plains (Rear sight, front sight, threat/target).

Agreed. And it come to one's evolution that you can actually cover the RDS window with masking tape and still hit targets FAST! Yeah, sounds like voodoo - I have been trying it recently and it seems to work...!

The net effect is that you'd be focusing on the target and just see the dot floating while NOT seeing the RDS housing. (search YT for the HumbleMarksman's channel)

In any case, the very notion that a Glock 19 is somehow obsolete is itself obsolete.

Yep, the most common do-everything handgun in America is obsolete.

Hogwash.

Yup!!!




Now that we are in the topic of a Red Dots and whether Glock 19s are obsolete - I just came out of a local IDPA match this past weekend. It was with my Wife's pistol that I set up for her defensive handgun classes - Glock 19 Gen 3 + Holosun HS407CO-X2 + Talon Grips Pro + G34-style extended slide lock/release lever (which caused problems with my grip; but it was the Wife's request) with stock internals. Ammo was factory Lawman 147GR.

Although the primary goal was to see how the 8MOA circle reticle works at speed compared to the Eotech-style circle-dot of the 507/8/9-series while doing a shakedown of the setup (yeah, apologies to the Wife - but never really tested her pistol outside of a static square range) - I would say - the Glock 19 Gen 3 doesn't feel obsolete to me...




(*) I have Vaseline vision - so, please forgive me for using an RDS.


_

[Shenaniguns]

At 25 yards, I've got no problem using irons on a handgun. If you're a cop pursuing a suspect, then I could see that "knee hanging out the barricade", but not for a self-defense scenario. Self-defense, you're aiming for center-mass. Anything beyond 25 yards would likewise be questionable for self-defense, with one possible exception being a roving gang approaching your house. In that case, I'd want a semi-automatic rifle with a 2x to 4x power scope anyway (maybe a 2-7x33). But I could still do it with irons on the rifle, too.

In any case, the very notion that a Glock 19 is somehow obsolete is itself obsolete.

You seem too closed minded to understand, if you're happy with using irons than nobody is forcing you to use a red dot. I shoot irons very well out to extended handgun distances and do not consider 25 yards very far with a and of my 9mm Glocks from G26 on up. Saying 25 yards is questionable for self defense shows that you are speaking well out of your lane as the person defending themselves do not get to pick the distances set by the threat or potential threat. Look at a parking lot, grocery store aisle, inside of a mall, distance from just across the street etc... This is a long and complicated topic that you'd need to pay good money for a lecture on. I carry a concealed handgun everywhere it's legal for me to do, I do not keep a rifle handy.

Regarding the guys who ho hum red dots, get educated on them before deciding. There are many pros and cons to them, but I understand why they are beneficial. 30 years ago people said that "plastic guns were junk"

[Stumpfenhammer]

At what distance does it become something other than self defense? When speaking about red dots vs irons that is important. When it comes to speed, faster than what and by whom? Within the distance you are likely to be able to claim self defense front sight and target is what will count. Within the distance a jury will agree to self defense if you can't be effective and very fast with a front sight/target some practice is in order.

A CCW shooting at arms, knees sticking out from barricades? What are you doing there, in some firefight and it's to the point you're shooting at extremities? If the bad guy has barricaded themselves that is your clue to bug out, not continue some gun battle. If you can't see their gun but you can see their knee or leg that means they aren't shooting at you, get out, you are not the police. Where are these gun battles taking place?

Good questions, it's important for every citizen with a gun to understand what problems they are willing or capable of solving in an in extremis situation.

The answer to your opening question is, "it depends". It depends on the situation and distance forced on you, and it depends on your level/quality of training (it also depends on your willingness/comfort with violence, aka 'mindset' but that's a different discussion). I don't train exclusively for the "check bumps in the middle of the night scenario", I train for all situations I can imagine encountering within the effective range of my weapon, to include dealing with an active shooter when I'm picking the kiddo up from school. That means room clearing, cornering, movement, combatives, etc.

Not everyone has that level of interest or commitment, and it's very likely they'll never find themselves in that situation, and the reality is that we all have different priorities and limited time to apply them to. So what I train for may not be a fit for the reality of your life or interests.

It would be nice if the opposing force were to allow you to extract yourself from the situation (if you are at the point of shooting from cover) but it's not realistic to expect that. If all you know is up-close, basic reactionary self-defense shooting skills, it may not be enough when you meet someone with a stronger commitment to murder and mayhem. Basic marksmanship is better than nothing of course, but if I'm going through the hassle and risk of carrying concealed, I want my software to be as or more capable than my hardware.

Do you imagine yourself only fighting at 7-yards, like Wyatt Earp, or is there a chance you'll be at one end of Aisle 6 in Walmart when an active-shooter kicks off? When he stops shooting at you (you are safely behind the potato chip display) and starts executing shoppers in Aisle 5, will you slip out the back because it's no longer a self-defense scenario? If all he ever shows around that end cap is a knee or an eyeball and muzzle, would you shoot that knee if you could? It depends, right?

And then there's the fact that, if you develop your skills to the degree that you can put timed shots in the black of a B-8 at 25-yards, that's going to have a net positive accuracy/speed affect on your shooting at all closer ranges. Better is better, and gunfights are final.

I'm not offering this up from my my ninja-fantasy-memory-bank: I've been in hundreds of structured, professional force-on-force scenarios and I can tell you, shooting skills will degrade under stress and/or mixed lighting conditions. So the ability to very accurately put rounds on target has value, because wherever your skills are now, they'll be markedly degraded when someone else is shooting at you.

Joe Average CCW, no matter how John Wayne they think they are, probably hasn't had the benefit of stress inoculation gained through either a few successful combat experiences, or an appropriate quantity of quality FoF training, so processing and appropriately responding to the threat(s) is going to be that much harder. You can, to a degree, make up for that by elevating your speed/accuracy to meet the limits of your hardware.

TL;DR: I'd rather be able to hit targets at 7 yards and 25 yards than just 7 yards. It's better to have more than you need than less.

[JC2020]

If someone loves RDS and feels better drawing and placing a first accurate shot with a RMR, more power to them. I don't want a battery operated sight that can fail or die without having co-witness irons and I don't want tall irons to snag. No one wants to draw and turn on a RDS before the can fire, so these have to be ON all the time no? For me, K.I.S.S. I'd rather have the plastic Glock sights.

I do have a G40, G17, G19, PPQ, MKII, with RDS. I like RDS in general.

[SharedShots]

#174Post

Stumpfenhammer,

What I do imagine is that if you as private citizen go around clearing rooms at a school, get into some search and destroy scenario you'll probably be the one to get shot or do you expect anyone else with a duty to enter the school in search of an active shooter to know who you are? Your CCW doesn't cover you running into a school to clear anything, it covers using your gun to protect yourself and if you have someone with you, to protect them but not to run around the school chasing anyone or clearing rooms.

What does the teacher who is armed do when you clear that room and how exactly are you going to do it, yell out "CCW?" or maybe "parent with a gun"? That is the fast way to get plugged and rightly so, that armed teacher is there to protect their students and themselves are that doesn't include some CCW holder playing cop. That is entirely different if you are inside a classroom conducting a parent audit and things happen but even then, you are not the one that goes room to room clearing anything because once you leave that room everyone you left there is at the mercy of Mr. BadMan. When you leave that room you become Mr Badman to everyone who sees you with a gun or are you flashing one of those CCW badges and hoping? No, you stay put. You organize those in the room with you, you can be their protector but doing the room clearing thing doesn't come into play, all that shoot and maneuver training is that Wyatt Earp you spoke of.

Wyatt Earp is when a CCW holder thinks they are the police and go from protecting themselves and their immediate charge and think they are the police. You see, in a school where there is an active shooter what happens when you and some other CCW holder become Rambo and start clearing rooms, is there a hand sign that says don't shoot me I'm the good guy? Why is the other CCW gone Rambo going to believe you, based on what, your say so? All you are doing is putting everyone in greater danger. So the cop shows up, you are clearing rooms and he sees you. He tells you to stop and you do what? Yell out"I'm a CCW? As if the bad guy wouldn't say the same thing? So now you've distracted the cop and he gets plugged and its because you did more than you are supposed to do.

Its time to read up and understand what your CCW covers and what it does not and going into a school to clear rooms because there is an active shooter isn't one of them. Would I go in to save my kid? Yeah but I don't then think I'm it and start clearing rooms and going after the bad guy because to everyone else, you are now the bad guy as far as they are concerned. We're aren't talking about a rescue from fire here or a building falling down, jumping into a lake to save a drowning child.

And one last thing, when you decide to shoot between aisle #6 and aisle#7 at Walmart and the bad guy has a hostage and he gets hit in the knee your red dot let you so accurately target, what happens next? Are you going to negotiate too or make that dash to secure the hostage only to find out after bad man got shot what you heard was hostage getting drilled?

There are lots of stories about CCWs getting the badman and that is a good thing but when you go from being inside an envelop to entering a school or shooting through Walmart aisles it becomes something else entirely. Know the difference.

[rodralig]

Joe Average CCW, no matter how John Wayne they think they are, probably hasn't had the benefit of stress inoculation gained through either a few successful combat experiences, or an appropriate quantity of quality FoF training, so processing and appropriately responding to the threat(s) is going to be that much harder. You can, to a degree, make up for that by elevating your speed/accuracy to meet the limits of your hardware.

TL;DR: I'd rather be able to hit targets at 7 yards and 25 yards than just 7 yards. It's better to have more than you need than less.

What I am more amazed, though, is the level of confidence displayed by many shooters that just because it is 7-yards that they are good to go... Yeah, the same shooters that if you put into, say, a match environment with zero-to-minimal moving targets can barely place two rounds at an 8-inch scoring zone at speed.

No... This is not tactics; but straightforward fundamentals to get proper hits on targets at speed.

Even with my current skill and training - I cannot even say that I am confident that I can handle commonly expected scenarios (hence, the best defense is avoidance)... And we have folks that practice only a few rounds at a static indoor square range with no regular training nor practice, but simply passing a "CCW" live fire test saying that they are good to go...

I must be living in a different dimension.


_

[Stumpfenhammer]

#174Post
What I do imagine is that if you as private citizen go around clearing rooms at a school, get into some search and destroy scenario you'll probably be the one to get shot or do you expect anyone else with a duty to enter the school in search of an active shooter to know who you are? Your CCW doesn't cover you running into a school to clear anything, it covers using your gun to protect yourself and if you have someone with you, to protect them but not to run around the school chasing anyone or clearing rooms.

What does the teacher who is armed do when you clear that room and how exactly are you going to do it, yell out "CCW?" or maybe "parent with a gun"? That is the fast way to get plugged and rightly so, that armed teacher is there to protect their students and themselves are that doesn't include some CCW holder playing cop. That is entirely different if you are inside a classroom conducting a parent audit and things happen but even then, you are not the one that goes room to room clearing anything because once you leave that room everyone you left there is at the mercy of Mr. BadMan. When you leave that room you become Mr Badman to everyone who sees you with a gun or are you flashing one of those CCW badges and hoping? No, you stay put. You organize those in the room with you, you can be their protector but doing the room clearing thing doesn't come into play, all that shoot and maneuver training is that Wyatt Earp you spoke of.

Wyatt Earp is when a CCW holder thinks they are the police and go from protecting themselves and their immediate charge and think they are the police. You see, in a school where there is an active shooter what happens when you and some other CCW holder become Rambo and start clearing rooms, is there a hand sign that says don't shoot me I'm the good guy? Why is the other CCW gone Rambo going to believe you, based on what, your say so? All you are doing is putting everyone in greater danger. So the cop shows up, you are clearing rooms and he sees you. He tells you to stop and you do what? Yell out"I'm a CCW? As if the bad guy wouldn't say the same thing? So now you've distracted the cop and he gets plugged and its because you did more than you are supposed to do.

Its time to read up and understand what your CCW covers and what it does not and going into a school to clear rooms because there is an active shooter isn't one of them. Would I go in to save my kid? Yeah but I don't then think I'm it and start clearing rooms and going after the bad guy because to everyone else, you are now the bad guy as far as they are concerned. We're aren't talking about a rescue from fire here or a building falling down, jumping into a lake to save a drowning child.

And one last thing, when you decide to shoot between aisle #6 and aisle#7 at Walmart and the bad guy has a hostage and he gets hit in the knee your red dot let you so accurately target, what happens next? Are you going to negotiate too or make that dash to secure the hostage only to find out after bad man got shot what you heard was hostage getting drilled?

There are lots of stories about CCWs getting the badman and that is a good thing but when you go from being inside an envelop to entering a school or shooting through Walmart aisles it becomes something else entirely. Know the difference.

You have a gift for adding story where there isn’t one. I didn’t describe the tactics or strategy I would use in that scenario, but since you brought it up, this should address some of your questions: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1322075

If you're wrapped around "cornering" and "clearing a room" let me suggest that you can't get out of your house, much less enter a school, without doing one or the other. Whether you are aware of it and/or know what you're doing is a different matter, so if you really have the willingness to go in for your child if you had to, you should probably add those to your training plan.

What’s appropriate for me may not be for you, and vice versa.

That said, you may not have a choice in what you’ll have to do to save yourself or your loved one. The situation will be forced on you. You will not rise to the situation, you will default to your lowest level of competence.

Regarding the active shooter scenario, I have a hard time believing that you wouldn’t want—more than anything else—to deal with that situation if you were there and armed (and no one else was there to solve the problem) assuming you had the skills, of course. I can’t picture you standing there waiting for law enforcement to roll. Can you?

I’m not advocating involving yourself if professionals have it handled, or if you don’t have the skills and experience to solve the problem without killing an innocent, but if it’s your day to step up, it’s your day. And if it’s your day you’ll have to solve all of those (completely) valid tactical/safety related points you made, whether you are ready or not.

Most of the rest of your comment is really addressing training issues, and I agree with you completely — before you decide to involve yourself in an active shooter situation, you better be sure you have the skills and experience to do so, and know the risks, both tactical and legal — and most CCW holders do not fit that description. That doesn’t, however, negate the benefit of becoming faster and more accurate at distances past 7 yards, for any CCW scenario, which is the point I was trying to make. If you can elevate your skills (and/or your hardware) to allow for groups at 25-yards, you'll be more accurate AND faster at 7 and you'll have options if you find yourself FORCED to make a shot at 25.

Again though, despite the valid concerns you brought up--and many other 'what-if' possibilities--the fact is that you don’t get to pick the encounter, and you won’t rise to the occasion, all you’ll have if the fight lasts more than a few seconds, is your training. And if you've trained to be the 7-yards-center-of-mass-only guy, then you better have a way of making sure you don't meet guy-behind-his-car-at-15 yards. But like I said, the standard you train to is a personal choice, it doesn't make you wrong for only preparing for simple, close-range attacks, as long as you know your limits and don't expect more when the time comes.

So train as much or as little as you like. Use a red dot or don't. If you only have time to train for the 50/50 (two guys facing each other at 7 yards or less) then train for that. But let’s not pretend that being able to hit targets at 25 yards (with or without a RDS) isn’t better than only being able to hit them at 7 yards. All other factors being even, if you can only put them in the black at 7 yards, and he can put them in at 25, he's better equipped. End of story.

I'm well aware of what my CCW allows and does not allow, and nothing I've advocated here precludes a CCW father from saving his daughter from imminent danger of death or grave bodily injury, without breaking the law. Assuming the law is your primary consideration at that moment.

What’s appropriate for me may not be for you. There's no threat here and I'm not going to force you to change your mind.

[Stumpfenhammer]

What I am more amazed, though, is the level of confidence displayed by many shooters that just because it is 7-yards that they are good to go... Yeah, the same shooters that if you put into, say, a match environment with zero-to-minimal moving targets can barely place two rounds at an 8-inch scoring zone at speed.

No... This is not tactics; but straightforward fundamentals to get proper hits on targets at speed.

Even with my current skill and training - I cannot even say that I am confident that I can handle commonly expected scenarios (hence, the best defense is avoidance)... And we have folks that practice only a few rounds at a static indoor square range with no regular training nor practice, but simply passing a "CCW" live fire test saying that they are good to go...

I must be living in a different dimension.


_

I get it.

That's why we used to video the students on the first run of every FoF course. Student: "I didn't flinch and turn away from the threat on that last barricade!" Instructor: "Cue video". Even then we had guys who would argue with the video. The ego is a powerful master.

We are men and we are born with innate shooting and fighting skills. At least that's what so many novice shooters seem to think, when the reality is that shooting is like golf and every other complex physical endeavor, you may have a little better hand-to-eye coordination than the next guy, but that's a minor contribution to your ability to shoot well, much less to gunfight. Everything else is a matter of quality reps and mindset. And as you alluded to, we haven't even addressed the tactical side of the equation. Strength is knowing your weakness. Training is the answer. The only answer.

I think that's one reason BJJ became so popular, it's reality based, you don't talk about defending a choke, you defend it, and you'll know in less than a minute if your theory about defending a choke intersects with reality. The difference is, you wake up after getting choked on the mat. No way to teach the herd with reality-based live-fire training, so we'll just keep having these conversations instead.

[Mendo223]

Red dots are faster than iron sights (once you have put in the time to be able to use them effectively). Red dots make it easier to hit small targets at distance, like that piece of a knee hanging out around a barricade. They come with a couple downsides over iron sights, but overall they are an upgrade.

Grip length and thickness are the biggest issues when it comes to concealment, a red dot doesn't make my pistol (noticeably) less concealable. For self-defense under seven yards red dots and iron sights are about even, but as distance and accuracy requirements increase, red dots pull ahead.

.

Ok, gangbanger analogy off the table, this post makes a little more sense.

I guess i would have to carry an RDS and see how comfy it is, i just foresee that little piece sticking right into my flabby gut.

The night sights alone will sometimes pinch against my gun while IWB..

If i had not IWB, and using a holster or something i can see going that route...

Ive had a fair amount of experiance carrying on my properties, especially at night, and there arent many distances longer than 50 yards, a streamlight at full power and night sights and i can still see and punch out accurately...

I guess when i get older and if my vision gets bad enough to not being able to see the night sights, could apply.


Welp i guess its time to drop some money on an RDS for my glock 19 and see what the deal is...

Any recomendations for the most low profile one? Like i said, im not a fattie, but even when carrying my 19 IWB the night sights like to dig into my flab roll whenever i bend over to pick something up, Its come to the point where i usualy just carry my g27 thats is completely stock because its just plain comfier.

[Mendo223]

You seem too closed minded to understand, if you're happy with using irons than nobody is forcing you to use a red dot. I shoot irons very well out to extended handgun distances and do not consider 25 yards very far with a and of my 9mm Glocks from G26 on up. Saying 25 yards is questionable for self defense shows that you are speaking well out of your lane as the person defending themselves do not get to pick the distances set by the threat or potential threat. Look at a parking lot, grocery store aisle, inside of a mall, distance from just across the street etc... This is a long and complicated topic that you'd need to pay good money for a lecture on. I carry a concealed handgun everywhere it's legal for me to do, I do not keep a rifle handy.

Regarding the guys who ho hum red dots, get educated on them before deciding. There are many pros and cons to them, but I understand why they are beneficial. 30 years ago people said that "plastic guns were junk"

Thanks for the video posts, I watched Colin Noirs RDS training video with the sig legions and it definately was pretty cool and seemed to get much quicker target aquisition...

Devils advocate here, but if you need to shoot past 25-50 yards doesnt the ol saying go "Your pistol is just used to get you to your rifle"......

Yea we cant pick and choose the situation, weapon, etc......but generally if i am doing ranch or property patrol i will carry a full size pistol for comfort while walking around and checking things, we arent in an active warzone so i dont need to bust out the rifle when doing quick property checks with the occassional squatter tweaker or black bear, but the Mini14 or AR15 is usually close by in case i suddenly need to punch out past 50 yards...

With 17 rounds of 9mm or 15rounds of .40 in a glock 19/23 im still fairly confident i can lob some shots out past 50 and at least keep their heads down until i get to the ranch rifle...

Makes me want to carry my 1911 more now because i can confidently hit 25 yards with her just not too thrilled about the 8-10 round count. My glock30sf can take the g21 12 round magazine but my initial practice with her so far im not hitting as accurate as my trusty 19/23 or 17/22....

[Mendo223]

At what distance does it become something other than self defense? When speaking about red dots vs irons that is important. When it comes to speed, faster than what and by whom? Within the distance you are likely to be able to claim self defense front sight and target is what will count. Within the distance a jury will agree to self defense if you can't be effective and very fast with a front sight/target some practice is in order.

A CCW shooting at arms, knees sticking out from barricades? What are you doing there, in some firefight and it's to the point you're shooting at extremities? If the bad guy has barricaded themselves that is your clue to bug out, not continue some gun battle. If you can't see their gun but you can see their knee or leg that means they aren't shooting at you, get out, you are not the police. Where are these gun battles taking place?

Exactly, well said. If i have to shoot 25-50 yards that is generally not qualified for "fear for my life" (unless they are shooting at you). My most common scenario is for ranch defense against tweakers and transients or home invaders, my property is about 3 acres and if im shooting at 25-50 yards that is most likely a warning shot to scare them off...Even then, i can reach most of the likely access points with well place 9mm shots and they would have to be extremely high to continue pushing past my gate with lead flying over head.....they generally want easy pickings or they sneak in first and get the jump on you. There are areas of my property where we watch the occasional coyote try and sneak across a field and attack the chickens and other livestock, that is easily 75-100 yards within my property line and 100-200 across the road in the main field, i would then be switching to .223 for varmint to knock that SOB down. (our local yote killed a few chickens and possibly a cat or two and i still havent managed to catch the damn bastard, only saw him once and he was 200 yards out on the neighbors property and i didnt want to send shots over that way and he was already scuttling off after scoping some poultry)

A self defense scenario would be more likely if say the tweaker has already trespassed onto my property and i stumble upon them in an accessory structure or hiding somewhere waiting to jump out on me...

For my house, unless im holding off a panzer division with Tom Hanks, a solid pistol with streamlight is all i need for clearing my halls, rooms etc. I dont see how a RDS is going to make me better at sub 5 yard distances inside a residence.....