Trigger Work on a HD Weapon?

[bwhited]

It is an issue that is pushed by litigation experts, for example Massad Ayoob.

I'm confused. Is there any pending or past case litigation where a modified trigger was a factor in a trial?

Or is this the ongoing Internet myth?

[NiteQwill]

It is an issue that is pushed by litigation experts, for example Massad Ayoob.

Again, which cases have shown this to be true?

I have yet to see any concrete evidence of this.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[bwhited]

It takes training and practice to properly use any piece of equipment.
Modifications are not required to properly use a firearm.

IMHO modify anything you want without changing spring weights or polishing the disengagement surfaces, so don't alter the reliability and your good for HD/CCW. As for having a light trigger so you could kill faster is if your shooting because you where in fear of your life. PD protocol is to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat by either not having the will or ability to fight due to blood loss. The same could be said about target practice so you can be more accurate to kill with a single/few shots or taking classes so your a more proficient killer.

[Citizen_B]

It is an issue that is pushed by litigation experts, for example Massad Ayoob.

I also echo the question, where is the evidence of this actually being a significant or deciding factor in an actual case?

It's true lawyers will use any advantage available to sway a jury. They could say say the gun is more deadly because it's the color black instead of purple. It's up to the jury if they believe that to be a reasonable statement.

[bwhited]

Since when is evidence the deciding factor on Calguns?
There are so many times when the issue is decided and the answer is wrong if you look for evidence.
In this case, the evidence is a litigation expert, Massad Ayoob, makes this point in his training classes.

I also echo the question, where is the evidence of this actually being a significant or deciding factor in an actual case?

It's true lawyers will use any advantage available to sway a jury. They could say say the gun is more deadly because it's the color black instead of purple. It's up to the jury if they believe that to be a reasonable statement.

[Munny$hot]

It takes training and practice to properly use any piece of equipment.
Modifications are not required to properly use a firearm.

So when you practice and train you dont try to hit the X correct? All you do is go to the range to fire a pistol at the direction of your intended target and where ever it lands your good with? If I where you I'd be more concerned with being in federal court accused of killing a family member, neighbor or innocent by stander because you aren't a proficient shooter.

[sholling]

It is an issue that is pushed by litigation experts, for example Massad Ayoob.

Who has been asked (without success) to show some cases where it mattered.

I have a personal rule of no less than 4lbs and no more than 6lbs on any of my defensive pistols that have a thumb safety, and no less than 4.5lbs on my striker fired pistols without a thumb safety. My goal is to get them all as close to the same 4.5lbs as possible so that I don't have to stop and think about which pistol has what break. Revolvers I keep stock for reliability reasons.

[bwhited]

So, you are saying that in factory trim they are uncontrollable?
I just do not understand your point.

With training and practice, they will shoot with great self-defense accuracy. Heck they can even shoot nice little groups when used properly.

So when you practice and train you dont try to hit the X correct? All you do is go to the range to fire a pistol at the direction of your intended target and where ever it lands your good with? If I where you I'd be more concerned with being in federal court accused of killing a family member, neighbor or innocent by stander because you aren't a proficient shooter.

[Citizen_B]

Someone here graciously let me shoot his CZ SP-01 that had some trigger work done on it. In addition to the smoothness throughout the length of pull of the trigger, I noticed how little effort it took to do so. So much so, in fact, that when the pistol recoiled after one particular shot, my finger engaged the trigger an additional time - by accident - and shot another round into the ceiling of the range. Needless to say, this got my attention, got me thinking, and also caused me to question a few things, which I would like to put out to you guys.

First, is there an intermediary place between the tremendous travel and effort needed to traverse the travel in a stock pistol trigger, and a "full" trigger job? I am putting the "full" in quotes because I suspect the answer is yes, but I have yet to be shown a weapon that has been given this type of "intermediary" trigger job, or a person who thinks this is a good idea. It seems that when it comes to trigger work, there exists an "all-or-nothing" attitude, automatically presuming that "more" work is always better.

Second is the question of different purposes. When I asked around, everyone was a fan of going "all the way" with trigger work, until I met a friend who logically said that some trigger work was good for competition only, and not good for home defense. I suspect that this has something to do with the fact that he is a former police officer, and that if there was ever any question about liability, they might have to answer to the courts as to if any aftermarket work done unnecessarily caused harm, yes?

Third (and finally), what is your opinion on the matter?

Yes, there are intermediate travel triggers. Some triggers offer adjustable length. That said, if you ND'd into the ceiling with a trigger worked pistol, I don't suggest going down that route right now. My humble suggestion would be to take some training classes that focus on the fundamentals with stock guns.

The debate of whether trigger work (or any kind of modifications in general) to an HD gun is alive and well. I haven't seen evidence that this was an actual issue in a real case. My opinion is I don't see how it would be significant, unless you as a defendant are making the claim that the round you fired was an 'accident'. If your shots have proper intent and it's a justified self-defense shoot, the weapon used is irrelevant. I'm sure many here will disagree with me.

[Citizen_B]

Since when is evidence the deciding factor on Calguns?
There are so many times when the issue is decided and the answer is wrong if you look for evidence.
In this case, the evidence is a litigation expert, Massad Ayoob, makes this point in his training classes.

I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't care about what constitutes a deciding factor on Calguns. I care about logic, facts, and evidence/examples that support peoples claims.

Ayoob and others have made this claim for many years, yet I still see no direct evidence supporting that claim.

[rkt88edmo]

1 - Yes - many smiths will offer a "service" (as in police service) or other named level of trigger job that may lighten, smooth, and make crisper the trigger pull some but still maintains a certain trigger pull weight.

2 - Not that it can't come up and add a complication, but a lawful shoot isn't determined by the trigger (see current news re: the cop with the decorative AR dustcover for something similar)

3 - Solve problem one first (not the 1 above)

0 - OP needs to work on his shooting, grip, and trigger control.

Someone here graciously let me shoot his CZ SP-01 that had some trigger work done on it. In addition to the smoothness throughout the length of pull of the trigger, I noticed how little effort it took to do so. So much so, in fact, that when the pistol recoiled after one particular shot, my finger engaged the trigger an additional time - by accident - and shot another round into the ceiling of the range. Needless to say, this got my attention, got me thinking, and also caused me to question a few things, which I would like to put out to you guys.

First, is there an intermediary place between the tremendous travel and effort needed to traverse the travel in a stock pistol trigger, and a "full" trigger job? I am putting the "full" in quotes because I suspect the answer is yes, but I have yet to be shown a weapon that has been given this type of "intermediary" trigger job, or a person who thinks this is a good idea. It seems that when it comes to trigger work, there exists an "all-or-nothing" attitude, automatically presuming that "more" work is always better.

Second is the question of different purposes. When I asked around, everyone was a fan of going "all the way" with trigger work, until I met a friend who logically said that some trigger work was good for competition only, and not good for home defense. I suspect that this has something to do with the fact that he is a former police officer, and that if there was ever any question about liability, they might have to answer to the courts as to if any aftermarket work done unnecessarily caused harm, yes?

Third (and finally), what is your opinion on the matter?

[Munny$hot]

So, you are saying that in factory trim they are uncontrollable?
I just do not understand your point.

With training and practice, they will shoot with great self-defense accuracy. Heck they can even shoot nice little groups when used properly.

[Press Check]

I'm confused. Is there any pending or past case litigation where a modified trigger was a factor in a trial?

Nope, never.

A good shoot is a good shoot, but the FUD dispensing, armchair lawyers love speculating about what could happen.

[smak28]

Trigger job isn't an all or nothing. Full trigger jobs are usually for competition: pre-travel, smoothness, trigger pull, crisp break, over-travel, reset, etc. You can polish parts to smooth things out, change parts for reset, etc. But you don't have to do it all.

As far as HD goes, if you've practiced a lot with a modified gun such as taking classes, competition shooting, etc that exposes you to stress, it's totally fine but it's definitely not recommended for individuals who don't practice enough because it can be too light and can have unintentional firing.

[bwhited]

My comment was that changes from factory can increase you liability.
This means that it is your choice if you want to take on this increased possiblity.
My recommendation is for SD shoot a factory firearm.
If I am correct, your best defence is not getting into a firefight. This is what I wish for you. Avoiding the situation is better than having to deal with it.

Even worse, when Hillary is in office she will outlaw your ability to defend yourself with a firearm or even own one.