Resolved.

[JackRydden224]

From what OP described it seems very obvious that his mom is there to buy a gun for him. If his mom had gone in alone and completed the paper work there would have been no problem. His mom would just take the weapon home to him after 10 days.

A father buying a rascal or daisy is completely different because the father would be in charge of the weapon not the kid. In OP's case the sales person made the judgement call that the mom did not want to deal with the weapon.

[CSACANNONEER]

I think you would agree there is quite a bit of difference between a parent purchasing a .22 cricket to teach a child to shoot versus a mag-locked AK pistol in which the parent showed ZERO interest, nor asked a single question about.

First off, thanks for the response.


Sorry, I don't agree that there is a difference because of the type of firearm being purchased. While I think AK pistols are novelty guns and wouldn't buy one to shoot with a child, I don't see what difference it makes between buying a firearm to teach a child and buying a firearm for a child, who already has some training, to just shoot for fun. If you really believe that the type of firearm or what it looks like makes a difference, you're sounding like those ignorant politicians who wrote and believe in Caifornia's AW laws. I really hope I am misinterpreting your post.

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of hindsight at the time of a suspected straw sale, we have to make a call. Our store manager also discussed this with the mother and son and he still didn't feel comfortable with the sale so we refused.

Like I said, I wasn't there and don't have the details. The salesman suspected a POSSIBLE straw purchase and acted accordingly. He did the right thing and I never said he didn't. I was just suggesting that if he didn't, he could have asked a few more questions in a casual conversation to help better understand the situation. It sounds like that was done by the manager. That's good. There's no reason to loose a potential new customer because of a hasty decision. I've seen it happen more than once.

Nor do I, but when you purchase them do you go into the store with the person you intend to use them, let them handle the entire discussion/interaction to make sure that is the firearm they want, and then proceed to fill out the paperwork in your name? I assume you would at least inspect the firearm yourself before making the purchase.

Yea, sometimes parents do go into the store with the children they may be buying a new gun for. Why not? I've seen it and been on both sides. A good parent/instructor may want to the child to see how it fits him/her, how well he/she can balance it, if he/she is strong enough to work the action, etc. Or, on the flip side, maybe the parent has already done his/her homework and knows exactly what he/she wants. I know that I've walked into a shop and just pointed at both new and used guns on the rack and said I'd take them without inspecting them first.

Helping guide a new shooter on a purchase is not a straw sale, and unless it was under some extreme circumstances, would not come across as a straw sale. Under this situation you would probably instuct the buyer to handle the firearm, check the feel, ask a question or two about recoil, etc... This happens all the time without setting off the "spidey sense". I hear what you are saying and I sympathize, however I still feel we handled this situation about as well as we could. Perhaps if the OP and his mother were regular customers it would have turned out differently, but seeing as we had no experience with either of them prior to this incident I don't see how we could be faulted for refusing the sale.

I agree but know that some shops/sales people just think every female accompanied by a non buying male is making a straw purchase. I've seen this at several shops. While, I know that many are, I also know that many are not.

From what OP described it seems very obvious that his mom is there to buy a gun for him. If his mom had gone in alone and completed the paper work there would have been no problem. His mom would just take the weapon home to him after 10 days.

A father buying a rascal or daisy is completely different because the father would be in charge of the weapon not the kid. In OP's case the sales person made the judgement call that the mom did not want to deal with the weapon.

I don't see any difference. In this case, who said the father and mother would not be in charge of the firearm in question at all times? In this case maybe the mother didn't care to handle the firearm in order to purchase it. She might have done her homework prior to walking into the shop and just knew what she wanted or that she wanted it only for her son to use. Who cares? I bought a car for my wife to drive. I didn't care how it drove for me. I did keep it in my name and allowed her to use it. Why can't a parent buy a gun with the intention of never shooting it but allowing their child to shoot it while the family is at the range?

[Oceanbob]

RIFLEGEAR is good to go. Bought a striped Aero Precision upper for an AR build I am doing for my 16 year old daughter. Bought a Glock 42 from them several weeks back. Incredible customer service and knowledge. Bought some other guns too as well as ordering off the website. They waste no time fulfilling orders.

I am the father of a minor child that loves guns and shooting as much as dad..

Last July my daughter and I were over at another gun shop. On the way out she noticed a "cute .22 rifle" on the rack. Since her birthday was approaching in mid August I thought hmmm, let's take a look. I politely motioned for the female salesperson to come fetch the rifle so I could look at it. The salesperson handed me the rifle, I looked it over a bit and handed it to my daughter to hold. The sales person asked how old my daughter was and I said 15. She requested the rifle back and said she couldn't hold any long guns in the store until she was 18!

Rules are rules I guess. But do we want to discourage our young people who are interested in our hobby, from even holding a rifle?

Later in the week, I went back to this gun shop BY MYSELF to buy this rifle and avoid any appearance of a Straw a Purchase for a minor. Maybe I was paranoid but I wanted that rifle for my daughter.. as a gift.

It's hers now.

[Heythatsneat]

Since I wasn't there, I don't know what was said, mannerisms, etc. However, as someone who promotes children taking up shooting sports, if I was the salesman at a gun shop (I've been there and done that already), I would probably have tried to learn a little more about the buyer's situation and her intentions. We don't need some mom buying an AK pistol for a minor to take to school for show and tell. But, we sure could use more moms buying firearms to use when they go shooting with their children. Do you turn away every father who is buying a Rascal, Cricket, etc. for their child or do you think the big old dad is really going buying it for himself? Again, when specifically talking about the OP's incident, I wasn't there and don't have all the facts. I can't say who was right and who was wrong. Well, the salesman was right to refuse what he believed to be a possible straw purchase. The real question is was he right in ASSumeing that it was going to be a straw purchase? Or, could he have been a little better salesman and, in the course of casual conversation, found out a little more about the potential buyer's intentions?

As long as the parent always retains possession and ownership of a firearm, why can't a child use it? I know that I've bought several firearms with no intention of shooting them myself but, instead, to let others shoot them including my stepson. I sure don't see a straw purchase here.

On another note, if I, as a male firearms instructor, brought a female, who was looking to purchase her first gun, into a LGS (any shop not just RG) to help her make a decision on which gun is right for her, would she be denied thinking it was just another straw purchase attempt? I typically do not have issues like this because, I have a good relationship with several local FFLs who know me. However, what if my female student was a hour or two from me and we went shopping at a LGS closer to her?

for someone who keeps stating that they weren't there, you have a lot to say..

it sounds like the OP is already interested in shooting and loss of an AK pistol won't change that. maybe if citizens issued FFLs and state permits to gun stores they would have completed the transaction. i'm not sure the risk of jail time for the salesperson and a shop being shut down for a $500 transaction would be worth it.

[tal3nt]

for someone who keeps stating that they weren't there, you have a lot to say...

That's exactly what I was thinking as well.

[SNCaliber]

This seems clear and dry to me from the review of the video footage, it smelled like a straw purchase and it is right of Riflegear to protect their own by denying the sale, sorry OP wait till you're old enough to buy your own AK instead of getting your mom to buy it for you

[rudedude916]

I wish my mom would have bought me an AK when I was younger. You got a cool mom.

[davidwow]

OP - you seem a tad too upset about this. I can see if you were frustrated a bit, but in truth writing a bad review toward Riflegear for trying to be lawful simply shows immaturity.

It is a huge risk and I hope that you can understand their decision. The way you describe it certainly shows that a bit of hesitation would have been fair. And for a gun store that doesn't have all the facts about your situation, once hesitation comes into play, it is better to be safe than sorry.

I will admit that I have done several transactions at Riflegear, and they are perhaps one of the best shops in So Cal in terms of customer service and their commitment to please and educate.

[StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca]

This sounds very familiar...

Same here.

[longfuzzy]

Since the OP is under 18, shouldn't RG not have allowed him to hold the gun?
-LF

[Atlantic Firearms]

Rifle Gear is a solid firm and the Straw Purchase situation is such a funky gray area & open for interpretation by a law enforcement official at the time of your arrest . A FFL has to be super tight on these situations or risk imprisonment and loosing your entire business over just one infraction .It is not the FFL trying to be mean however we have to protect ourselves against the law. I know we will not risk feeding our family's here for a $600 sale & have no desire to be embroiled in a legal battle with the Government over a straw sale either way we would loose . Customers need to realize the scrutiny , hassle & RISK we have to now endure under tighter govt regulations.

[billmaykafer]

is the AK pistol the one that got the 5.45 surplus ammo banned in the us by the BATFE ????

[Riflegear]

Rifle Gear is a solid firm and the Straw Purchase situation is such a funky gray area & open for interpretation by a law enforcement official at the time of your arrest . A FFL has to be super tight on these situations or risk imprisonment and loosing your entire business over just one infraction .It is not the FFL trying to be mean however we have to protect ourselves against the law. I know we will not risk feeding our family's here for a $600 sale & have no desire to be embroiled in a legal battle with the Government over a straw sale either way we would loose . Customers need to realize the scrutiny , hassle & RISK we have to now endure under tighter govt regulations.

That pretty much sums it up. We love our customers and always strive to do our best in serving them, but sometimes we just have to err on the side of caution. It is really more of a CYA than anything else. Thank you for the kind words, Atlantic. We've also heard nothing but good things about you folks.

RG Staff

[perpetual otter]

This thread was fun.