Resolved.

[AGFNTB]

First off, I am posting this to simply publicize my experience at Riflegear (negative). I understand the flip side of this, but nevertheless, am upset.

Well, after driving 1.5 hours with my mother to purchase their M92 PAP, they turned us down due to the employee getting the "impression" that it was a straw purchase. Even after explanation of everything that he misunderstood, and validation of our upstanding character, they refused to sell us the gun. My mother and I were treated like criminals, and it offended my mother to a great extent who has purchased probably 35-40 guns in her lifetime. This was our very first experience with Riflegear, and at this point likely the last.

I respect a businesses right to deny service to anyone, but this was just bad business... We were not disrespectful or argumentative at any time during the event. This entire thing was very shocking to me and my mother, after all the great things we have heard of the store. Looks like Atlantic firearms is about to get our business, as I have failed to support the smaller local business due to circumstances out of our control.

Rant off.

I would like to state that I did not post the argue with anyone, so I will leave this thread here for anyone who would like to read it, and comment as they please. Regardless of what anybody says, my mother was offended, I was offended, and our time was wasted going to Riflegear. This is my review. Business taken elsewhere.

Thank you for reading.

Rant? Sounds more like a tantrum.

[shark92651]

I just reviewed the security footage and I am 100% convinced that the salesperson was justified in suspecting a straw sale. Explanations of how "your family" purchases guns, the number of firearms that your mother owns, or that you felt you were "treated like criminals" is irrelevant as the salesperson has no knowledge of any of that - he just knows that if it walks and talks like a duck, assume it is a duck.

Here is what the video shows:

You both walk into the store, your mother stays at the back of the room and YOU walk up to the counter and ask to see the AK pistol. When the salesperson pulls the AK off of the wall your mother walks up and the salesperson hands it to her and she immediately hands it to you. You handle the gun, rack it, generally smile quite a bit and then you hand it back to your mom who then immediately hands it back to the salesperson as if she has no interest in the firearm at all. Of course then when it is suggested that the firearm is for your mother the salesperson smells straw purchase. It's pretty cut and dry from what I can see. Any explanation that comes afterwards is irrelevant. It looks like a straw purchase and we would be putting our license and our business in jeopardy should we continue with the sale. Heck, for all we know one of you may have a hidden camera on you and the entire transaction could end up on NBC news - how would that look to the general public, the CA DOJ, or the ATF? This is an AK pistol, not a .22 that a mother would use to teach her children about firearm safety. We have no personal agenda against you, your mom, or your family and I am sorry you drove a long distance only to have the sale turned away.

However, again, I understand WHY they denied the sale, but I don't think it was handled properly one bit.
If we haven't made a 1.5 hour drive, maybe we would not be so upset.

In the interest of improving our customer service, how do you think we could have refused this suspected straw sale in a better way?

[Hoshnasi]

... and validation of our upstanding character

I don't know why but this made me lol. How does on validate such a thing?

[DFence]

First off, I am posting this to simply publicize my experience at Riflegear (negative). I understand the flip side of this, but nevertheless, am upset.

Well, after driving 1.5 hours with my mother to purchase their M92 PAP, they turned us down due to the employee getting the "impression" that it was a straw purchase. Even after explanation of everything that he misunderstood, and validation of our upstanding character, they refused to sell us the gun. My mother and I were treated like criminals, and it offended my mother to a great extent who has purchased probably 35-40 guns in her lifetime. This was our very first experience with Riflegear, and at this point likely the last.

I respect a businesses right to deny service to anyone, but this was just bad business... We were not disrespectful or argumentative at any time during the event. This entire thing was very shocking to me and my mother, after all the great things we have heard of the store.

Rant off.

I would like to state that I did not post the argue with anyone, so I will leave this thread here for anyone who would like to read it, and comment as they please. Regardless of what anybody says, my mother was offended, I was offended, and our time was wasted going to Riflegear. This is my review. Business taken elsewhere.

Thank you for reading.

Riflegear didn't waste you and your mothers time......you both wasted theirs by attempting to commit a crime. Instead of complaining about Riflegear not helping you violate the law, you should be hoping they don't report you and your mother for conspiracy to commit a straw sale.

If you value your "future" in Law Enforcement, you should make better choices in the "future".

[DFence]

I just reviewed the security footage and I am 100% convinced that the salesperson was justified in suspecting a straw sale. Explanations of how "your family" purchases guns, the number of firearms that your mother owns, or that you felt you were "treated like criminals" is irrelevant as the salesperson has no knowledge of any of that - he just knows that if it walks and talks like a duck, assume it is a duck.

Here is what the video shows:

You both walk into the store, your mother stays at the back of the room and YOU walk up to the counter and ask to see the AK pistol. When the salesperson pulls the AK off of the wall your mother walks up and the salesperson hands it to her and she immediately hands it to you. You handle the gun, rack it, generally smile quite a bit and then you hand it back to your mom who then immediately hands it back to the salesperson as if she has no interest in the firearm at all. Of course then when it is suggested that the firearm is for your mother the salesperson smells straw purchase. It's pretty cut and dry from what I can see. Any explanation that comes afterwards is irrelevant. It looks like a straw purchase and we would be putting our license and our business in jeopardy should we continue with the sale. Heck, for all we know one of you may have a hidden camera on you and the entire transaction could end up on NBC news - how would that look to the general public, the CA DOJ, or the ATF? This is an AK pistol, not a .22 that a mother would use to teach her children about firearm safety. We have no personal agenda against you, your mom, or your family and I am sorry you drove a long distance only to have the sale turned away.



In the interest of improving our customer service, how do you think we could have refused this suspected straw sale in a better way?

All sales canceled due to suspicion of it being a straw sale, should have gas money reimbursed! Haha

[BONECUTTER]

All sales canceled due to suspicion of it being a straw sale, should have gas money reimbursed! Haha

and money for lunch......

[Sleighter]

Sometimes the truth hurts.

[fredridge]

very odd.

the OP has a number of Gun transactions in his itrader feedback.

[BONECUTTER]

very odd.

the OP has a number of Gun transactions in his itrader feedback.

[Ed_Hazard]

Shark slapdown in 3, 2, 1...

I just reviewed the security footage and I am 100% convinced that the salesperson was justified in suspecting a straw sale. Explanations of how "your family" purchases guns, the number of firearms that your mother owns, or that you felt you were "treated like criminals" is irrelevant as the salesperson has no knowledge of any of that - he just knows that if it walks and talks like a duck, assume it is a duck.

Here is what the video shows:

You both walk into the store, your mother stays at the back of the room and YOU walk up to the counter and ask to see the AK pistol. When the salesperson pulls the AK off of the wall your mother walks up and the salesperson hands it to her and she immediately hands it to you. You handle the gun, rack it, generally smile quite a bit and then you hand it back to your mom who then immediately hands it back to the salesperson as if she has no interest in the firearm at all. Of course then when it is suggested that the firearm is for your mother the salesperson smells straw purchase. It's pretty cut and dry from what I can see. Any explanation that comes afterwards is irrelevant. It looks like a straw purchase and we would be putting our license and our business in jeopardy should we continue with the sale. Heck, for all we know one of you may have a hidden camera on you and the entire transaction could end up on NBC news - how would that look to the general public, the CA DOJ, or the ATF? This is an AK pistol, not a .22 that a mother would use to teach her children about firearm safety. We have no personal agenda against you, your mom, or your family and I am sorry you drove a long distance only to have the sale turned away.



In the interest of improving our customer service, how do you think we could have refused this suspected straw sale in a better way?

Called it withen 3 posts, are you clarevoiant or something SarcoBlaster?

Oh and OfficerOP,

[triggatronic]

Gotta love RifleGear for their presence on this forum.

Dikembe Matumbo would be proud. "No no no....not today."

[CSACANNONEER]

I just reviewed the security footage and I am 100% convinced that the salesperson was justified in suspecting a straw sale. Explanations of how "your family" purchases guns, the number of firearms that your mother owns, or that you felt you were "treated like criminals" is irrelevant as the salesperson has no knowledge of any of that - he just knows that if it walks and talks like a duck, assume it is a duck.

Here is what the video shows:

You both walk into the store, your mother stays at the back of the room and YOU walk up to the counter and ask to see the AK pistol. When the salesperson pulls the AK off of the wall your mother walks up and the salesperson hands it to her and she immediately hands it to you. You handle the gun, rack it, generally smile quite a bit and then you hand it back to your mom who then immediately hands it back to the salesperson as if she has no interest in the firearm at all. Of course then when it is suggested that the firearm is for your mother the salesperson smells straw purchase. It's pretty cut and dry from what I can see. Any explanation that comes afterwards is irrelevant. It looks like a straw purchase and we would be putting our license and our business in jeopardy should we continue with the sale. Heck, for all we know one of you may have a hidden camera on you and the entire transaction could end up on NBC news - how would that look to the general public, the CA DOJ, or the ATF? This is an AK pistol, not a .22 that a mother would use to teach her children about firearm safety. We have no personal agenda against you, your mom, or your family and I am sorry you drove a long distance only to have the sale turned away.



In the interest of improving our customer service, how do you think we could have refused this suspected straw sale in a better way?

Since I wasn't there, I don't know what was said, mannerisms, etc. However, as someone who promotes children taking up shooting sports, if I was the salesman at a gun shop (I've been there and done that already), I would probably have tried to learn a little more about the buyer's situation and her intentions. We don't need some mom buying an AK pistol for a minor to take to school for show and tell. But, we sure could use more moms buying firearms to use when they go shooting with their children. Do you turn away every father who is buying a Rascal, Cricket, etc. for their child or do you think the big old dad is really going buying it for himself? Again, when specifically talking about the OP's incident, I wasn't there and don't have all the facts. I can't say who was right and who was wrong. Well, the salesman was right to refuse what he believed to be a possible straw purchase. The real question is was he right in ASSumeing that it was going to be a straw purchase? Or, could he have been a little better salesman and, in the course of casual conversation, found out a little more about the potential buyer's intentions?

As long as the parent always retains possession and ownership of a firearm, why can't a child use it? I know that I've bought several firearms with no intention of shooting them myself but, instead, to let others shoot them including my stepson. I sure don't see a straw purchase here.

On another note, if I, as a male firearms instructor, brought a female, who was looking to purchase her first gun, into a LGS (any shop not just RG) to help her make a decision on which gun is right for her, would she be denied thinking it was just another straw purchase attempt? I typically do not have issues like this because, I have a good relationship with several local FFLs who know me. However, what if my female student was a hour or two from me and we went shopping at a LGS closer to her?

[Ninety]

It is very obvious the amount of love for rifle gear here. I have had nothing but positive experiences there and will look forward to more of them

Guys, he is "in law enforcement". He is not a LEO nor does he profess to be. There are a lot of non peace officer jobs in the law enforcement field.

That said, without being there, it's hard to say exactly why RG decided not to sell to your mom. Personally, I'd rather see parents buying firearms for their little children to shoot. So, RG seems not to be promoting allowing their next generation of customers to get into shooting with their families. That's not great for the shooting comunity. However, like I said, I wasn't their and don't know exactly what you said to trigger the "possible straw purchase" thing. Sometimes it is better for little kids to be seen and not heard. Did you inspect the firearms? Did you comment on it? If so, I'm going to guess that it was your actions that led to the termination of the sale. Yea, it was probably YOUR FAULT!

OP^^

Since I wasn't there, I don't know what was said, mannerisms, etc. However, as someone who promotes children taking up shooting sports, if I was the salesman at a gun shop (I've been there and done that already), I would probably have tried to learn a little more about the buyer's situation and her intentions. We don't need some mom buying an AK pistol for a minor to take to school for show and tell. But, we sure could use more moms buying firearms to use when they go shooting with their children. Do you turn away every father who is buying a Rascal, Cricket, etc. for their child or do you think the big old dad is really going buying it for himself? Again, when specifically talking about the OP's incident, I wasn't there and don't have all the facts. I can't say who was right and who was wrong. Well, the salesman was right to refuse what he believed to be a possible straw purchase. The real question is was he right in ASSumeing that it was going to be a straw purchase? Or, could he have been a little better salesman and, in the course of casual conversation, found out a little more about the potential buyer's intentions?

As long as the parent always retains possession and ownership of a firearm, why can't a child use it? I know that I've bought several firearms with no intention of shooting them myself but, instead, to let others shoot them including my stepson. I sure don't see a straw purchase here.

On another note, if I, as a male firearms instructor, brought a female, who was looking to purchase her first gun, into a LGS (any shop not just RG) to help her make a decision on which gun is right for her, would she be denied thinking it was just another straw purchase attempt? I typically do not have issues like this because, I have a good relationship with several local FFLs who know me. However, what if my female student was a hour or two from me and we went shopping at a LGS closer to her?

I think CSA hits the nail on the head.. I understand (RG) You guys are busy and no one wants to see you guys risk anything.. You explained the footage and it sounds pretty bad.. Hopefully this can be used as a learning experience for both parties involved...

For all of you balking straw purchase.. The mother can be purchasing the firearm for her kid for when he turns 18. It always amazes me the amount of people so quick to jump someones **** on this forum. Like all of us that have children that have bought or obtained firearms in hopes of someday passing those very firearms down to our children. All of you that have called this guy out must agree with the 18 and over law as it is written.. There are plenty of ways of getting guns illegally.. I'm sure much easier ways then driving and trying to support a vendor from your favorite gun forum.
And real cute pickin on the kid about being in law enforcement.. I don't know if he edited his post or if the reading comprehension of those who posted are a little compromised.

[shark92651]

Do you turn away every father who is buying a Rascal, Cricket, etc. for their child or do you think the big old dad is really going buying it for himself?

I think you would agree there is quite a bit of difference between a parent purchasing a .22 cricket to teach a child to shoot versus a mag-locked AK pistol in which the parent showed ZERO interest, nor asked a single question about.

Again, when specifically talking about the OP's incident, I wasn't there and don't have all the facts. I can't say who was right and who was wrong. Well, the salesman was right to refuse what he believed to be a possible straw purchase. The real question is was he right in ASSumeing that it was going to be a straw purchase? Or, could he have been a little better salesman and, in the course of casual conversation, found out a little more about the potential buyer's intentions?

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of hindsight at the time of a suspected straw sale, we have to make a call. Our store manager also discussed this with the mother and son and he still didn't feel comfortable with the sale so we refused.

As long as the parent always retains possession and ownership of a firearm, why can't a child use it? I know that I've bought several firearms with no intention of shooting them myself but, instead, to let others shoot them including my stepson. I sure don't see a straw purchase here.

Nor do I, but when you purchase them do you go into the store with the person you intend to use them, let them handle the entire discussion/interaction to make sure that is the firearm they want, and then proceed to fill out the paperwork in your name? I assume you would at least inspect the firearm yourself before making the purchase.

On another note, if I, as a male firearms instructor, brought a female, who was looking to purchase her first gun, into a LGS (any shop not just RG) to help her make a decision on which gun is right for her, would she be denied thinking it was just another straw purchase attempt? I typically do not have issues like this because, I have a good relationship with several local FFLs who know me. However, what if my female student was a hour or two from me and we went shopping at a LGS closer to her?

Helping guide a new shooter on a purchase is not a straw sale, and unless it was under some extreme circumstances, would not come across as a straw sale. Under this situation you would probably instuct the buyer to handle the firearm, check the feel, ask a question or two about recoil, etc... This happens all the time without setting off the "spidey sense". I hear what you are saying and I sympathize, however I still feel we handled this situation about as well as we could. Perhaps if the OP and his mother were regular customers it would have turned out differently, but seeing as we had no experience with either of them prior to this incident I don't see how we could be faulted for refusing the sale.

[evilbisquit]

Since I wasn't there, I don't know what was said, mannerisms, etc. However, as someone who promotes children taking up shooting sports, if I was the salesman at a gun shop (I've been there and done that already), I would probably have tried to learn a little more about the buyer's situation and her intentions. We don't need some mom buying an AK pistol for a minor to take to school for show and tell. But, we sure could use more moms buying firearms to use when they go shooting with their children. Do you turn away every father who is buying a Rascal, Cricket, etc. for their child or do you think the big old dad is really going buying it for himself? Again, when specifically talking about the OP's incident, I wasn't there and don't have all the facts. I can't say who was right and who was wrong. Well, the salesman was right to refuse what he believed to be a possible straw purchase. The real question is was he right in ASSumeing that it was going to be a straw purchase? Or, could he have been a little better salesman and, in the course of casual conversation, found out a little more about the potential buyer's intentions?

As long as the parent always retains possession and ownership of a firearm, why can't a child use it? I know that I've bought several firearms with no intention of shooting them myself but, instead, to let others shoot them including my stepson. I sure don't see a straw purchase here.

On another note, if I, as a male firearms instructor, brought a female, who was looking to purchase her first gun, into a LGS (any shop not just RG) to help her make a decision on which gun is right for her, would she be denied thinking it was just another straw purchase attempt? I typically do not have issues like this because, I have a good relationship with several local FFLs who know me. However, what if my female student was a hour or two from me and we went shopping at a LGS closer to her?

There is a big difference between buying a firearm because you want to teach your child or have something for them to shoot and buying a firearm for your child because they can't do the paperwork themselves. One is a straw purchase, one is not. What's the issue here?