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[Baboosh]

What changed in 2017 that allows CA FFLs to convert AWs into non AW's? I have been asked a lot lately to just split AR15s in half and forward to CA lately. Prior to 2017 that was almost always rejected by CA FFLs because they considered them as AW's in a state of disassembly/repair and not "un"-AW's. If I could have shipped them like that last year it would have been a much easier and faster process. I would like to get more CA FFLs on board with accepting disassembled guns but I do not know what PC to show that makes it legal to just disassemble rifles to make them legal.

If sending a disassembled AR15 is legal how is the buyer able to take possession if assembling for the safety demo turns it back into an AW if it is not converted at the FFLs premise?

If it is disassembled then it is not an AW. What exactly would the FFL be converting? Putting a grip wrap on? That isn't even manufacturing per the ATF. Or the buyer can take all the parts home, FFL keeps the receiver and it is DROSed as a receiver only because that is exactly what they received. Buyer then has the responsibility to make sure it is CA compliant.

Receivers do not need a safety demo to be performed.

11 CFR 5471 (hh) "Semiautomatic" means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge eject the empty case and reload the chamber each time the trigger is dulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt, carrier, gas tube or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code section 30515, 30600 and 30605(a) and 30900.

Even before the new regulations disassembled was never an issue. We had DOJ audits when shipments came in and asked Bob during an audit. The new regulations just made it crystal clear and in writing.

[kemasa]

IOr the buyer can take all the parts home, FFL keeps the receiver and it is DROSed as a receiver only because that is exactly what they received. Buyer then has the responsibility to make sure it is CA compliant.

You have a problem there. Under Federal law that would be considered in a take down condition since all the parts are in the box and it is just taken apart. While CA does not considered it a so-called a-salt weapon, it is a complete firearm.

[Baboosh]

You have a problem there. Under Federal law that would be considered in a take down condition since all the parts are in the box and it is just taken apart. While CA does not considered it a so-called a-salt weapon, it is a complete firearm.

We have always logged them into our book as a receivers, 2 ATF audits and inventory check and they have never mentioned anything. Even while seeing parts in the box or attached to the box.

If logged into book as a rifle and the DOJ inspects your book, I know legally you can fight this, and they see it logged in as a rifle how do you explain that?

Our ATF auditors have always been helpful, I will send a quick email.

[ugimports]

We have always logged them into our book as a receivers, 2 ATF audits and inventory check and they have never mentioned anything. Even while seeing parts in the box or attached to the box.

If logged into book as a rifle and the DOJ inspects your book, I know legally you can fight this, and they see it logged in as a rifle how do you explain that?

Our ATF auditors have always been helpful, I will send a quick email.

I wondered about this in the past. How do you log in Ruger Takedowns? Or shotguns like Benelli's that don't come assembled?

I used to log them in as receivers as you mentioned, but our atf auditor said to log them in as complete firearm if that's what was received (even if disassembled).

[Baboosh]

I wondered about this in the past. How do you log in Ruger Takedowns? Or shotguns like Benelli's that don't come assembled?

I used to log them in as receivers as you mentioned, but our atf auditor said to log them in as complete firearm if that's what was received (even if disassembled).

Well if we ordered a rifle or a shotgun then its logged in as we ordered as I log in based off our invoice.

However if we are shipped items from another FFL or individual a firearm, and then parts, we log them in as a receiver. Since I could not accept that rifle legally in CA it cannot be a rifle.

We have had people order a complete lower and a complete upper from Primary Arms and other online retailers and the entire order gets shipped to us. It sure wasn't a rifle on their books, why would we log them in as a rifle? The only firearm I received was a receiver.

[Baboosh]

My worry is the CA DOJ and them auditing our book. I sure don't want a entry in my book saying I certify something was a rifle when it is not CA compliant.

Not sure if the DOJ can do anything if the firearm is not even in your possession anymore but I sure as heck don't want to open myself those accusations and litigation.

[kemasa]

We have always logged them into our book as a receivers, 2 ATF audits and inventory check and they have never mentioned anything. Even while seeing parts in the box or attached to the box.

What an IOI notices and says does not indicate what the requirements actually are.

If logged into book as a rifle and the DOJ inspects your book, I know legally you can fight this, and they see it logged in as a rifle how do you explain that?

Simple, it did not meet the definition of a so-called a-salt weapon. You received rifles all the time and you don't have to prove that it was not a so-called a-salt weapon, do you?

Our ATF auditors have always been helpful, I will send a quick email.

That is a good idea.

[ugimports]

Well if we ordered a rifle or a shotgun then its logged in as we ordered as I log in based off our invoice.

However if we are shipped items from another FFL or individual a firearm, and then parts, we log them in as a receiver. Since I could not accept that rifle legally in CA it cannot be a rifle.

We have had people order a complete lower and a complete upper from Primary Arms and other online retailers and the entire order gets shipped to us. It sure wasn't a rifle on their books, why would we log them in as a rifle? The only firearm I received was a receiver.

If you receive the firearm from a gunbroker seller and it says "Smith & Wesson M&P Sport II Rifle" on the invoice, but shipped separated, how would you log it in?

Most of our invoices state the type of firearm (typically from gunbroker, or possibly Buds, Grab A Gun, etc..).

I understand your PSA example and the invoice for that would actually say Receiver on it.

I've received many Side-by-side shotguns disassembled and the invoice said Shotgun on it.

[kemasa]

I wondered about this in the past. How do you log in Ruger Takedowns? Or shotguns like Benelli's that don't come assembled?

That is a good example. It is a complete firearm in the box.

I used to log them in as receivers as you mentioned, but our atf auditor said to log them in as complete firearm if that's what was received (even if disassembled).

[/quote]

That sounds like the proper thing based on what I have seen from the BATF.

[quote]

Well if we ordered a rifle or a shotgun then its logged in as we ordered as I log in based off our invoice.

If you ordered all of the parts, it is a complete firearm, based on what I recall from the BATF. That is why it is said that if you are selling all the parts, the lower should be sold separately. As well, if you assemble it for the customer, you can't sell them all the parts at once, the lower should be transferred before you put it together.

However if we are shipped items from another FFL or individual a firearm, and then parts, we log them in as a receiver. Since I could not accept that rifle legally in CA it cannot be a rifle.

That is not correct. If all the parts are there, then it is a complete firearm. The CA DOJ has said that if the upper is not on an AR type firearm, then it is not a so-called a-salt weapon. That means you can receive it, but you can not put it together unless and until it is in a legal configuration.

We have had people order a complete lower and a complete upper from Primary Arms and other online retailers and the entire order gets shipped to us. It sure wasn't a rifle on their books, why would we log them in as a rifle? The only firearm I received was a receiver.

Because it is a complete firearm, just like if you sold all the parts together. The problem with what they are doing is not your problem and you should not cause problems for yourself in order to protect them.

My worry is the CA DOJ and them auditing our book. I sure don't want a entry in my book saying I certify something was a rifle when it is not CA compliant.

Ignoring Federal issues is not a good idea. There is not enough information in your bound book or other records to prove or even indicate that what you received was not legal. If you received a firearm in take down condition and you don't record it as you should under Federal law, that is easier to prove.

Not sure if the DOJ can do anything if the firearm is not even in your possession anymore but I sure as heck don't want to open myself those accusations and litigation.

I get that, but do you want to subject yourself to Federal issues out of fear of CA issues?

To me, it is what is legal, not what you can get away with. If the firearm is a complete firearm in take down condition, then I am going to record it as required.

[Baboosh]

What an IOI notices and says does not indicate what the requirements actually are.

Simple, it did not meet the definition of a so-called a-salt weapon. You received rifles all the time and you don't have to prove that it was not a so-called a-salt weapon, do you?

That is a good idea.

True, however it does set precedence. I've enjoyed ATF audits, they are helpful, nice and are there to help to make sure we are doing our job. I ask tons of questions and they will put it in writing if I want.

I've been lucky, haven't had to battle the DOJ on anything really. Both times I had Bob, I know he wasn't the most liked but he was fair to us. We got through both with basically no marks besides little paperwork fixes. I believe Bullet Barn got rolled up in something like this, not sure how it panned out I may need to reach out.

I am emailing them now, I'll be happy to post the response.

[Baboosh]

If you receive the firearm from a gunbroker seller and it says "Smith & Wesson M&P Sport II Rifle" on the invoice, but shipped separated, how would you log it in?

Most of our invoices state the type of firearm (typically from gunbroker, or possibly Buds, Grab A Gun, etc..).

I understand your PSA example and the invoice for that would actually say Receiver on it.

I've received many Side-by-side shotguns disassembled and the invoice said Shotgun on it.

Good questions, this is why I like this forum. With regards to the Sport II I'd log it in as S&W, M&P (believe that is what it says on the receiver) type: Receiver. To me that is the only firearm I received.

Maybe we have been doing it wrong. But with almost 10k guns on the books do I change it now or wait to be told to change it?

[kemasa]

True, however it does set precedence. I've enjoyed ATF audits, they are helpful, nice and are there to help to make sure we are doing our job. I ask tons of questions and they will put it in writing if I want.

Unless it is in writing, it means nothing. Yes, most IOI seem to be good and helpful, but some are wrong and you have to prove them wrong, which can cause problems.

I've been lucky, haven't had to battle the DOJ on anything really. Both times I had Bob, I know he wasn't the most liked but he was fair to us. We got through both with basically no marks besides little paperwork fixes. I believe Bullet Barn got rolled up in something like this, not sure how it panned out I may need to reach out.

I am emailing them now, I'll be happy to post the response.

It will be interesting to see what the response is.

[kemasa]

Maybe we have been doing it wrong. But with almost 10k guns on the books do I change it now or wait to be told to change it?

When you realize that you are doing something wrong, you change it right away, do not wait until you are called on it.

As mentioned, how would you log in a Ruger 10/22 takedown? It is in two pieces.

[Baboosh]

If you ordered all of the parts, it is a complete firearm, based on what I recall from the BATF. That is why it is said that if you are selling all the parts, the lower should be sold separately. As well, if you assemble it for the customer, you can't sell them all the parts at once, the lower should be transferred before you put it together.

So you are saying if I order a complete lower from RSR and on the same invoice from RSR I order a complete upper I ordered a complete firearm and it needs to be logged into my books as a complete rifle even though the parts were never attached? How does that make sense?

Because it is a complete firearm, just like if you sold all the parts together. The problem with what they are doing is not your problem and you should not cause problems for yourself in order to protect them.

So you are saying every time someone buys parts to complete a gun at the same time the selling FFL is the manufacturer even though he never assembled the parts? That is against everything I have ever read, asked or been told.

Ignoring Federal issues is not a good idea. There is not enough information in your bound book or other records to prove or even indicate that what you received was not legal. If you received a firearm in take down condition and you don't record it as you should under Federal law, that is easier to prove.

I am not ignoring federal laws. I am simply logging in what firearm I received.

[Baboosh]

When you realize that you are doing something wrong, you change it right away, do not wait until you are called on it.

As mentioned, how would you log in a Ruger 10/22 takedown? It is in two pieces.

I will wait to see what the ATF has to say.

But I ordered a rifle, this is a different scenario in my eyes.