PPT Nightmare

[bkz81]

Can FFL2 just send it back to FFL1 after contact verification?

[Oldmandan]

OP, perhaps you should post whether the pistol is off-roster or not, to remove any speculation from the thread.

[DB>]

REALLY need to know whether it's long gun or handgun (and thus whether it is on or OFF roster). And who the "system" shows as the owner of the gun?

Seller completed his obligation. It ended when he signed the paperwork for the transfer - ANYTHING after that falls on the FFL's and the buyer. ANY demand that the seller return funds after the gun was relinquished into "the system" is groundless unless and until the gun is returned to him (legally).

Second FFL got stuck with a real "hot potato" if this is an off roster. First FFL shipped (in all aspects comparable to "released") the firearm on the buyers "request" (which is problematic if the firearm is still showing as registered to the SELLER, due to incomplete processing?). IMO this should have been cleared up BEFORE the gun went anywhere - whether released on undetermined to the buyer or shipped elsewhere.

I suspect that the "ownership" and trail of posession, while messy is not entirely incurable, but may require DOJ approvals to correct given the irregular moving around of the gun. <Deadpool pops in to "clean up the timeline">

Probably would be a good start to figure out whose name the gun is currently in - the seller or the buyer...? THEN figure out if the second FFL can clean up the paprework and sucessfully release to buyer, with any additional assistance from first FFL.


Frankly, this is just the sort of mess the current system creates - there is NO rational reason that a background check cannot be completed in real time, clearing a buyer for purchase (if they can do it for ammo....). The 10 day "cooling off" causes all kinds of hardship on law abiding citizens, including excessive travel, exposure to FFL errors, etc. "Nightmare" is exactly what "the system" was designed to create for gun owners and lawful gun ownership.

Hopefully this can get sorted and the buyer can "complete" the pickup of the gun and move on. Having recently dealt with a "FFL nightmare", as a seller, I did what I could to help the buyer complete the deal (FFL screwed up, made rediculous demands to correct THEIR error... after I stepped in, they backed down and found a simple easy solution...).

[taperxz]

REALLY need to know whether it's long gun or handgun (and thus whether it is on or OFF roster). And who the "system" shows as the owner of the gun?

Seller completed his obligation. It ended when he signed the paperwork for the transfer - ANYTHING after that falls on the FFL's and the buyer. ANY demand that the seller return funds after the gun was relinquished into "the system" is groundless unless and until the gun is returned to him (legally).

Second FFL got stuck with a real "hot potato" if this is an off roster. First FFL shipped (in all aspects comparable to "released") the firearm on the buyers "request" (which is problematic if the firearm is still showing as registered to the SELLER, due to incomplete processing?). IMO this should have been cleared up BEFORE the gun went anywhere - whether released on undetermined to the buyer or shipped elsewhere.

I suspect that the "ownership" and trail of posession, while messy is not entirely incurable, but may require DOJ approvals to correct given the irregular moving around of the gun. <Deadpool pops in to "clean up the timeline">

Probably would be a good start to figure out whose name the gun is currently in - the seller or the buyer...? THEN figure out if the second FFL can clean up the paprework and sucessfully release to buyer, with any additional assistance from first FFL.


Frankly, this is just the sort of mess the current system creates - there is NO rational reason that a background check cannot be completed in real time, clearing a buyer for purchase (if they can do it for ammo....). The 10 day "cooling off" causes all kinds of hardship on law abiding citizens, including excessive travel, exposure to FFL errors, etc. "Nightmare" is exactly what "the system" was designed to create for gun owners and lawful gun ownership.

Hopefully this can get sorted and the buyer can "complete" the pickup of the gun and move on. Having recently dealt with a "FFL nightmare", as a seller, I did what I could to help the buyer complete the deal (FFL screwed up, made rediculous demands to correct THEIR error... after I stepped in, they backed down and found a simple easy solution...).

Unfortunately your remarks are simply that of of person that doesn’t understand the law or how DOJ operates. The proof is in you thinking that DOJ actually does an instant background check for ammo tells all. Hint: DOJ doesn’t actually do an instant background check for ammo.

[edgerly779]

Lots of ffls do not. Turners is largest example. Is the sellers handgun off roster? If so then ffl and buyer fkd up.

[sfe187]

So why is it that some FFLs don't release on undetermined and some do?

You have to own a business to really understand the decisions they make. Whether its under abundance of caution or risking possible future headaches of time, money and/or regulatory scrutiny. Running a business have to factor in all these issues, its not simple sometimes.

[jcwatchdog]

You have to own a business to really understand the decisions they make. Whether its under abundance of caution or risking possible future headaches of time, money and/or regulatory scrutiny. Running a business have to factor in all these issues, its not simple sometimes.

[1911-CV]

Undetermined

LOTS of discussion over the years.

Here is the statute

"the dealer may then immediately transfer the firearm to the purchaser".

[taperxz]

[edgerly779]

It is ffl holder or corporate policy. They can deliver on undetermined but choose not to. Off roster only applies to handguns FYI to the asker above.

[sfe187]

Simple answer is . . . . . . money.

Each FFL's financial situation is different. Some have deep reserves while some are month to month.

Its not the question of stricter than the law, its about if something happens where owner have to explain or defend vs regulatory agencies, and the cost to go along with it. Remember this is CA which loves to give any gun related a hard time. Therefore, if you're in the gun business, you have to factor in your operating budget on things like this. Some FFL therefore rather not put themselves in that position and simply declare a store policy, no release on undetermined.

[I Swan]

One FFL I know won't released on undetermined after a discussion with their lawyer about it.

[Tyke8319]

It's all based on how one views their exposure to liability..

[1911-CV]

Any update?

[ronlglock]

So why is it that some FFLs don't release on undetermined and some do?

If it is because of "lawyers," why is it that these FFLs hire fudd/incompetent/clueless lawyers? Isn't there a list of quality 2A lawyers that these FFLs can choose from?