PPT Nightmare

[johnthicc]

He chose poorly, he should have selected an FFL that releases on undetermined.

That is not your fault.

Could we get the buyer's username? I doubt anyone wants to sell or buy with a person asking to give firearms illegally.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Yes, once I think the matter is over, I will blast him on here. Want no one else to go through this.

[SkyHawk]

According to the OP there is no “contract” to oblige.

Buyer does not have the gun in his name. All he needs to do is walk into claims and file. AFS will show the seller as the owner. Seller’s own admission he took funds from the buyer.

Pretty black and white for claims court.

Moral obligation is not the same as legal obligation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The buyer owns the gun. He owned it the moment he handed over cash after the seller presented the item as described for inspection, relinquished it and signed away his interest on the DROS. At that moment the seller has fulfilled his end of the deal. At the same time, the buyer effectively represented himself as a legal, not-prohibited possessor when he handed over the cash and did the 4473 and the DROS.

The seller is under no obligation to make sure the buyer can possess this and in fact it is impossible for a seller to know that even if he wanted to. That is all on the buyer. A judge would laugh this right out of small claims court. If I was the seller I would dare the buyer to even try it.

It's like someone buying a car from you, then a month later finding out they can't get a driver's license and demanding you unwind the sale. Oh and by the way they had the car shipped off to some rando dealer.

This is 100% the buyer's problem, and 0% the seller's problem. The buyer doesn't get to involve the seller and his gun in a months long experiment to find out if he is a legal possessor and then just put it all on the seller when he finds out he cannot possess. He now owns it, whether he can possess it or not is of no concern to the seller.

Even without taking possession, the buyer has other remedies to dispose of what is now his property, including selling it to the FFL he had it transferred to, or having that FFL consign sale it out of state.

[ugimports]

BTW: I've said this in other failed PPT threads.. I always recommend (and use this for my own personal PPTs) creating a bill of sale such as this: http://www.ugimports.com/docs/Privat...t_Template.doc

I have used this for the handful of PPTs I've done (3-4) and no legitimate buyer has any issue signing it.

Having this document puts this whole discussion to sleep and gives the seller piece of mind that any "terms" are explicit and agreed to up front.

Note: Attachment is a word document. I can make a PDF version available if you just want to browse (copy/paste) the content, but don't need to edit.

[P5Ret]

Buyer has every right to walk into a PD and file a police report for the loss of funds.

He also has the right to walk into claims court.

Can you show me where the seller had the intent to deprive the buyer of either the gun or the money? If there is no intent there is no crime, end of story.

Theft in this state is a specific intent crime, meaning the buyer would have had to have the intent to to deprive the seller of either the gun or the cash. The cash was exchanged in a sale of the gun, no intent there legal transaction. The gun was delivered to a FFL as required by law. The buyer was unable to successfully clear a background check, not the sellers fault. In fact if the OP is accurate the seller did not learn of that wrinkle until after 30 days had passed. Anyone would have a very hard time convincing someone that the seller had any intent to commit theft of any kind here.

You're right he can go to small claims court, but there is no guarantee he would prevail. In fact I think based on what is in the OP, it would be very difficult for the buyer to get a judgement in his favor.

Based on what we know from the OP the buyer created this mess by having the gun shipped to a different FFL. The original FFL shares some of that by not contacting the seller after the buyer came back undetermined, and then compounded the issue by agreeing to ship the gun to a second FFL at the buyer's request.

I just can't see the buyer, as the harmed party here, especially when he owns this mess.

[johnthicc]

Appreciate all the info.

[Bunyfofu69]

ttt

[johnthicc]

Entered a scheme with intent to deprive?

I offered to complete another dros. I think that's a little far out there.

[Bunyfofu69]

Entered a scheme with intent to deprive?

I offered to complete another dros. I think that's a little far out there.

Yea I didn’t mean it in such a manner that your acting in bad faith. Attempts to rectify the situation, I’m sure we’re done.

It’s a matter of what the court sees that’s all.


Do what you gotta do!

[QuinnBayArea]

Out the FFL who shipped a PPT gun to another FFL!!!!!

[CheapBloke]

Does a PPT firearm get placed in the FFL Bound Book during initial transfer? If so, doesn't that mean by law the FFL is at 100% control of the firearm?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[ugimports]

Does a PPT firearm get placed in the FFL Bound Book during initial transfer? If so, doesn't that mean by law the FFL is at 100% control of the firearm?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Yes

[sfe187]

OP - If you want to help out this whining ungrateful buyer for free, its up to you but stand your ground in this deal is also righteous. Don't let going to small claims court as a headache, its like going to the dmv, not a big deal. If the FFL turns gun into LE, so be it, you sold the gun, buyer can't pass dros, you have not done anything illegal. People like to use the "small claims card" as tactics, and i have never heard a real small claims court story over a failed PPT. Anyone has any real experiences or know any case laws over OP situation to small claims court please speak up.

[johnthicc]

After thinking about it, I'm going to stand firm on not giving refund. I will offer to complete dros.

The new FFL was actually very understanding of the situation and was willing to speak some sense to buyer.

[Garv]

Please keep the updates going 0P, this is an interesting one.

[johnthicc]

Please keep the updates going 0P, this is an interesting one.

Start a gofundme for me if I go to court and lose.