PPT Nightmare

[DB>]

Wait... the buyer who the FFL wouldn't release to asked that FFL to ship the gun to another FFL, and they DID IT??? I think there are more than a few questions here... it wasn't his gun at that point, no business shipping it anywhere. Since he did that, and you have been willing to meet to redo the paperwork and he keeps changing/backing out... he's far beyond "reasonable".

Once that was done, I don't think you have any obligation to refund a dime unless and until YOU have the gun in your posession, and you refund less the costs if it has to be re-DROSed and a reasonable amount for your time. That or agree to set ONE meet for him to retry the DROS, at his own risk.

I'm presuming you do know where the gun is now... and have made contact in case you need to recover it?

[ugimports]

You may have an issue proving to the existing FFL that has the firearm that it is yours. The trail in their ATF bound book shows the FFL that shipped to them as the owner.

This can be problematic because the "new" FFL that has it can't return it to you since you are not the owner of record in their ATF bound book.

Think about the scenario you are in and how the FFL can get in hot water.

Here's an example:
1) I am a non-exempt person that has a Gen5 Glock 19 shipped to FFL A. Obviously we cannot complete the transfer. I ask FFL A to ship to FFL B.
2) You come into FFL B and say "oh yeah that was mine FFL A wouldn't release on undetermined so we came here to complete the PPT".

How in earth does FFL B have any auditable documentation to show that is indeed what happened? The new FFL may think you are playing tricks to circumvent the roster.

This is indeed a PPT nightmare.

At this point, even if you get your firearm shipped back to FFL A I'm not sure they could DROS it back. They have no record of what happened to it while it was at FFL B.

If I were you I would tell the buyer they screwed everything up.

If I were FFL B there is no way in heck I would complete this as a "PPT" for some "Seller" that came in claiming the firearm was theirs. I would ask the "Seller":
a) why did this get shipped to me from an FFL if it was yours?
b) Why didn't you just bring it in?
c) how do I know it is still yours and didn't get transferred to someone else in the meantime at FFL A?

[Vinnie Boombatz]

How is this the fault of the seller? If the buyer passed the background check he'd have the gun right now. That has nothing to do with the seller. Then the buyer had the gun transferred to another FFL without letting the seller know about it at first? Again, not the seller's fault. If the guy no longer wanted the firearm and wanted a refund, he shouldn't have had the firearm transferred to a different FFL.

If it was convenient for me I would meet the jerk at the new FFL to do the transfer again, and that would be that. No refund, no more communication or correspondence with him, no more help on my part if I was the seller.

[P5Ret]

You may have an issue proving to the existing FFL that has the firearm that it is yours. The trail in their ATF bound book shows the FFL that shipped to them as the owner.

This can be problematic because the "new" FFL that has it can't return it to you since you are not the owner of record in their ATF bound book.

Think about the scenario you are in and how the FFL can get get in hot water.

Here's an example:
1) I am a non-exempt person that has a Gen5 Glock 19 shipped to FFL A. Obviously we cannot complete the transfer. I ask FFL A to ship to FFL B.
2) You come into FFL B and say "oh yeah that was mine FFL A wouldn't release on undetermined so we came here to complete the PPT".

How in earth does FFL B have any auditable documentation to show that is indeed what happened? The new FFL may think you are playing tricks to circumvent the roster.

This is indeed a PPT nightmare.

At this point, even if you get your firearm shipped back to FFL A I'm not sure they could DROS it back. They have no record of what happened to it while it was at FFL B.

If I were you I would tell the buyer they screwed everything up.

If I were FFL B there is no way in heck I would complete this as a "PPT" for some "Seller" that came in claiming the firearm was theirs. I would ask the "Seller":
a) why did this get shipped to me from an FFL if it was yours?
b) Why didn't you just bring it in?
c) how do I know it is still yours and didn't get transferred to someone else in the meantime at FFL A?

This is a much more detailed description of what I was thinking. The first FFL really screwed the pooch by shipping it out, at the request of someone who was not at that point the owner. Both he and the buyer are on the hook for this, goat rodeo.

At some point you're going to need to involve someone that has real time access to AFS to prove that you are indeed the owner of record for that gun. Although I'm not sure if you can get that involvement. It may sound like a criminal matter on it's face, but the intent was probably not there to elevate it from a civil matter to a criminal one. I'm not even sure that will help when it comes to the feds, and the paperwork.

I'm not sure if there is an easy way out of this, for you, since that gun is going to show you as the current owner in AFS. Either way you're going to need a lot better advise and guidance than you're going to get for free on the internet.

[Garv]

Free advice: Make sure you file all the paperwork and correspondence carefully just in case.

No gun return, no refund of any kind.
Why should you be out the money AND the gun?

Tell the buyer when HE figures out how to get the gun to you, discussion of money can start.
Do not be unfair to yourself.

[SkyHawk]

If this is an off roster handgun, the new FFL can't even process it back to you.

This is all the fault of the buyer. THEY entered into a PPT not knowing if they would be approved, with 100% certainty. You never PPT a gun for your first purchase. If you do and you come back denied or undetermined, all consequences are your's as the buyer.

And now that the buyer has had the gun shipped, all bets are off. It is his. It was his when he bought it and you signed the DROS releasing interest to him, and it was his when he had it shipped off compounding the problem. He owns it. Just because he cannot POSSESS it is not your problem. Ownership and possession are two different things. He has a DOJ problem, he does not have a johnthicc problem.

You fulfilled your end of the bargain. And after his tantrum and shipping stunt, I would absolutely tell him to pound sand

[bugsy714]

[1911-CV]

Gun may be 'lost'

Since it's been more than 30 days, the gun would have to be DROS'd back to you, assuming the FFL could even establish a chain of ownership. If this is an off-roster firearm, it may be 'lost' if the ownership trail cannot be established.

If either of the FFL's are willing to do the transfer, personally, I would show up.

Shipping to the second FFL made a real mess of things.

[edgerly779]

He is the fkup not you. Do you have the gun back?

[edgerly779]

go to ffl fi;\ll out return dros and leave with firearm off roster meaningless.

[taperxz]

The buyer has the problem, not you. Plus your FFL that you chose, screwed up and violated the law by sending to another FFL. They were supposed to return it to you or if you didn't claim it, take it to their local LE agency for disposal. The End.

[SkyHawk]

go to ffl fi;\ll out return dros and leave with firearm off roster meaningless.

did you miss the part where the gun has been shipped to another FFL? The roster now matters - absolutely. This has been discussed before. If the roster didn't matter in a case like this, then a loophole has just been exposed where anyone could tell a FFL a story about a gun that arrived by common carrier, and how it should be processed as roster exempt.

[edgerly779]

Did not see it was sent screwup all around. Seller should have retrieved the firearm. Can of worms.

[Bunyfofu69]

ttt

[edgerly779]

I think gun isgone seller cannot get it back. Since it was shipped in ca as a transfer now off roster buyer cannot get it. Does it go to leos for destructu=ion or strip it of parts and send frame to leos. Some value there.