Do sellers need RealID for PPT?

[9mmContagion]

Turner's Oxnard did this to my friend 2 weeks ago on Anderson lowers as a buyer. He paid for the Lowers and dros then they refused to run the dros until he returned with a certified birth cert which he had to spend extra money to order. They wouldn't accept his DMV reg or utility bill. Also refused to refund entire purchase so he was forced to spend Xtra $ to keep it moving forward. Just one additional reason I have boycotted Turner's for at least 7 years now. 80%of my many previous experiences with them have resulted in a complete hassle and hours wasted standing in the store waiting.

[TJW]

I was at Turner's just 2 weeks ago asking what I need as seller, they require a CA Real ID, U.S. Passport, or U.S. Birth Certificate. They will not accept a "Federal Limits Apply" CA Driver's License.

[I Swan]

I agree that dealers should not even need to be in the loop. Now that DOJ has a built a somewhat robust version of CFARS, there is no reason why they couldn't add a PPT functionality where the parties enter their info and the seller holds the gun until an approval is received. The only drawback is that if the seller is prohibited, the gun is still in their possession and DOJ would have to send their APPS goons after them. I'm guessing the statistics of denied sellers is minuscule though.

As for PPT buyers and sellers giving business to the FFL, this is sometimes the case and it is always appreciated, but more often than not, it is two sellers that come in and the FFL just happens to be an equidistant location for the two parties to meet. They rarely buy anything and often come in during peak hours with an entitled attitude that the FFL must under any circumstances do their PPT.

Hopefully someday one of the 2A organizations or even better, the NSSF, will push the DOJ to enact a more appropriate PPT method.

I can't speak for other people but I generally make buyers and some sellers come to me not some random FFL I rarely go to. Due to too many CGN flakes. Not going to be out so much time and gas if they flake.

I also almost always do at non peak time and will buy what I can. I do realize many don't have the courtesy to do so.

You never know. One FFL sold a $4500 gun to my PPT buyer that he had no idea the shop had until I told them to take it out from the back and show it to him. They knew we were serious no nonsense gun collectors.

[tbc]

What does Riflegear pull during PPT?

Riflegear also requires real ID from seller. I was the seller with FLA DL and was denied by them.

[I Swan]

Riflegear also requires real ID from seller. I was the seller with FLA DL and was denied by them.

Lame. Probably an attempt to discourage PPT. Although there is always the issue of having a policy addressing what to do if the buyer is denied on a PPT and the seller can't DROS it back to themselves.

But would be fairly simple just to tell them to bring the proper documentation with their federal limits ID if they need to DROS it back to themselves.

[1681]

Lame. Probably an attempt to discourage PPT. Although there is always the issue of having a policy addressing what to do if the buyer is denied on a PPT and the seller can't DROS it back to themselves.

But would be fairly simple just to tell them to bring the proper documentation with their federal limits ID if they need to DROS it back to themselves.

This is just another BS policy made up by Riflegear, and every other Tom, Dick and Harry with some authority to confuse uninformed gun owners with more of their crap.

It's ironic that many of these so-called experts are our worst enemies when it comes to 2A rights.

The ATF only requires FFLs to collect SELLER's name and address, and CA PC section 28060 only requires FFLs to record:

(1) The name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm.

(2) Whether or not the person is a personal firearm importer.

per CA PC section 28250:

(d) If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the
purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the
dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 26815 and 27540, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm.

per CA DOJ's policy, a SELLER's background check is only required when a firearm is returned to SELLER after (30) 24 hours periods of the delivery/return period, or if the DROS is cancelled.

The purchaser from a Private Party transaction was denied, how can I request the NICS Transaction Number (NTN) to return the firearm to the seller?

The NTN for a seller will only be provided when the purchaser from a Private Party transaction has a status of "Undetermined," "Rejected," or "Denied" associated with the background of that particular DROS transaction. The dealer must contact the Customer Support Center at (855) 365-3767 for assistance to request the NTN number by providing the associated transactions DROS number and verifying the purchasers first and last name. If the corresponding DROS transaction is cancelled, or past the 30 24-hour delivery/return period, the associated seller NTN will no longer be valid, and the firearm will need to be DROSed back to the seller as a Return to Owner DROS transaction.

and currently there's no CA Penal Code that requires a SELLER to provide a valid picture ID or driver license, let alone a REAL ID to SELL a firearm.

[1681]

I was at Turner's just 2 weeks ago asking what I need as seller, they require a CA Real ID, U.S. Passport, or U.S. Birth Certificate. They will not accept a "Federal Limits Apply" CA Driver's License.

Turner's is another gun store that I will not go to for any business. They act like some quasi government agency with their BS policies and "expert" attitudes, or act like they're doing gun owners a favor with their business.

and most of these so-called experts are the store assist. managers or managers themselves, which then will trickle down to the staff who will mirror their bosses' behaviors.

[kemasa]

...
and currently there's no CA Penal Code that requires a SELLER to provide a valid picture ID or driver license, let alone a REAL ID to SELL a firearm.

Really? Perhap you want to look a bit more with respect to the requirements for a CA PPT.

Ignoring the reality of the FFL and making comments against them will only cause more problems, but feel free to get a FFL and show everyone how it shouldn't be done and hopefully as you learn, your opinion won't be changed.

[1681]

Really? Perhap you want to look a bit more with respect to the requirements for a CA PPT.

Ignoring the reality of the FFL and making comments against them will only cause more problems, but feel free to get a FFL and show everyone how it shouldn't be done and hopefully as you learn, your opinion won't be changed.

sounds like you know more about CA gun laws so maybe you can enlighten me with specific Penal code section on SELLER's ID requirement?

FFLs are not lawmakers or LEOs. They just need to understand and follow the laws correctly like the rest of gun owners, not making up more crap to make things more difficult for everyone. They should also be speaking up if they see issues with how gun laws are being interpreted/implemented since it's their livelihood.

CA FFLs are already given a leg up with the law requiring everyone to use their service when buying/selling guns, and no one forces them to become FFLs so stop giving them excuses for doing a bad job.

[kemasa]

sounds like you know more about CA gun laws so maybe you can enlighten me with specific Penal code section on SELLER's ID requirement?



FFLs are not lawmakers or LEOs. They just need to understand and follow the laws correctly like the rest of gun owners, not making up more crap to make things more difficult for everyone. They should also be speaking up if they see issues with how gun laws are being interpreted/implemented since it's their livelihood.



CA FFLs are already given a leg up with the law requiring everyone to use their service when buying/selling guns, and no one forces them to become FFLs so stop giving them excuses for doing a bad job.

You can do the research yourself instead of wanting to be spoon fed. A dealer has to read a CA ID/DL, or military ID with duty orders. How can it be done without it? The CA DOJ has stated what is required, including additional documents when it says Federal Limits Apply on the front.

Yes, FFLs have to follow the laws and regulations. Unless you educate yourself, how can you say what they are doing is wrong? You may not like it, but you don't get inspected by the CA DOJ and BATF.

Leg up being forced to work for wages under the minimum wage? Oh, because you don't know all it takes and the expenses, it doesn't exist. You don't know, so it is bad.

So perhaps all the FFLs should close and then what will you do?

[1681]

I bet most businesses would love to have the state guarantees a customer base for their products/services.

[1681]

You can do the research yourself instead of wanting to be spoon fed. A dealer has to read a CA ID/DL, or military ID with duty orders. How can it be done without it? The CA DOJ has stated what is required, including additional documents when it says Federal Limits Apply on the front.

Yes, FFLs have to follow the laws and regulations. Unless you educate yourself, how can you say what they are doing is wrong? You may not like it, but you don't get inspected by the CA DOJ and BATF.

Leg up being forced to work for wages under the minimum wage? Oh, because you don't know all it takes and the expenses, it doesn't exist. You don't know, so it is bad.

So perhaps all the FFLs should close and then what will you do?

I've done plenty of research and even spoke with a CA DOJ rep, who could not tell me what PC applies to SELLER's ID requirement after he searched for it himself.

that's why I asked if you know the specific PC since you sounded like an "expert".

which business does not love for the state to guarantee a customer base for their products/services for free?

how much would they have to spend on ads if the state doesn't require everyone to use FFLs to buy/sell guns?

I bet you give bad cops a pass because they have a tough job, right?

[kemasa]

I've done plenty of research and even spoke with a CA DOJ rep, who could not tell me what PC applies to SELLER's ID requirement after he searched for it himself.

that's why I asked if you know the specific PC since you sounded like an "expert".

There is a CA PC which deals with the requirements for CA PPTs and the information required. A valid ID is required. CA DOJ has defined what is valid.

which business does not love for the state to guarantee a customer base for their products/services for free?

Most when the fee is limited to a small amount.

how much would they have to spend on ads if the state doesn't require everyone to use FFLs to buy/sell guns?

You mean like in free states? Not much actually, many free means of getting business by registering with sellers. CA PPTs are not that much business and certainly not much money, especially for all the time needed to deal with it, including all the paperwork to be stored.

I bet you give bad cops a pass because they have a tough job, right?

Nope, not at all. I see you like to make things up to attack. I have no problem with a valid complaint, but far too often it is a bogus complaint because the person doesn't have a clue as to everything that has to be dealt with, including being told what to do, even if it doesn't seem to follow the law, by the government. A prime example is the 1 in 30 exemption for modern firearms when the person has a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE.

When the answer isn't known and it is hard to get an answer, what do you expect people to do? Do the safe thing or gamble with their business?

Did you know it was law to swipe the CA ID/DL at some point in the transaction? It doesn't matter if you know it won't work, you still have to do it.

[1681]

There is a CA PC which deals with the requirements for CA PPTs and the information required. A valid ID is required. CA DOJ has defined what is valid.

Again, which PC deals with SELLER's ID requirement?

Most when the fee is limited to a small amount.

You mean like in free states? Not much actually, many free means of getting business by registering with sellers. CA PPTs are not that much business and certainly not much money, especially for all the time needed to deal with it, including all the paperwork to be stored.

If someone believes he/she can earn a living with PPTs, they need to get their heads examined.

Many businesses spend lots of money to get potential customers into their doors just to look at their stuff, and PPT is a great way for FFLs to get that traffic for almost free.

Nope, not at all. I see you like to make things up to attack. I have no problem with a valid complaint, but far too often it is a bogus complaint because the person doesn't have a clue as to everything that has to be dealt with, including being told what to do, even if it doesn't seem to follow the law, by the government. A prime example is the 1 in 30 exemption for modern firearms when the person has a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE.

When the answer isn't known and it is hard to get an answer, what do you expect people to do? Do the safe thing or gamble with their business?

Did you know it was law to swipe the CA ID/DL at some point in the transaction? It doesn't matter if you know it won't work, you still have to do it.

which law was that? or is it a policy/procedure created by some bureaucrats at CA DOJ (who are paid by taxpayers to be our "public servants").

Policies are not LAWS, and the people who work at CA DOJ or gun stores are not GODS.

They become GODs when average gun owners just bow down to their bad implementation of laws with bad policies/procedures so they can just survive another day.

and we all know LAWS and policies can be changed when there are enough people that want the change and are willing to fight for it.

It's ironic that CA "law abiding" gun owners have been losing more rights, while other minority groups like LGBTQ or undocumented immigrants are gaining more rights everyday.

[kemasa]

Regulations can be law when the law says that they can make regulations.

Go ahead, get a FFL and show everyone how it is done.