When does the rapture take place?

[Just Dave]

And I am saying that Christ clearly says there is no such thing. No "rapture" before the tribulation. It is a myth, and in fact it is the myth that is the lynchpin of Satan's plan to get half the world to worship him.

And they will.

Because they believe somebody is coming to save them from the trib and they will follow the first being who shows supernatural abilities and they will forget (or they never learned) that Christ said that the one who will be first is the abomination of desolation. And because they fail to understand that, they will follow him.

From second Thessalonians:



Could not be clearer.

I don't think you know what the harpazo (rapture) is.
The anti-Christ is a man empowered by Satan and he isn't coming in the clouds. When people pledge their allegiance to him by taking the mark they are not going to do it by meeting the him in the air.

1 Thess 4:16-18

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you see the "we who are alive and remain"? That's the church during that day.

It's pretty clear. (BTW 1st Thess comes before 2nd Thess)

Notice the 'comfort one another with these words" v18? Telling the church that we're going to be here to battle the anti-Christ and deal with God's wrath isn't very comforting.

Now study 1 Thess 4:16-18 and then read John's gospel chapter 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you,I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." Now compare that with the second half of 1 Thess 4:17.

Notice in the gospel of John the tribulation isn't mentioned? Do you know why? Because the gospel of John is addressed to believers, so instead of the trib we get John 14:3

[Just Dave]

And!
How do you explain this Bountyhunter?

Revelation 9:20 "But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands"

Revelation 9:21 "And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries"

Revelation 16:9 "And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory."

Revelation 16:11 "They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds."

God in His love and fairness still offers salvation during the tribulation. The above passages also clearly demonstrate that people still have the capacity to repent of their sins and be saved but obviously some don't.

[e90bmw]

We don't know..

[bountyhunter]

I don't think you know what the harpazo (rapture) is.

To be perfectly honest, I'm sick of this topic. I don't care if you found a harpazo or a Grouchazo or a Zepphazo or any other Marx brother. You seize on a word and try to build a thesis around it when you fail to see what is right in front of your face: Christ said very explicitly what will happen in the end times, what the sequence of events will be and you ignore what He said and claim the opposite. Christ is the best source of information. I have already posted it and I am sick of reposting it. You and the others who don't want to hear Christ's words can harpazo yourselves right into the arms of the Antichrist because that is exactly how it is written to happen. Those who believe Christ is coming FIRST to whisk them away before the tribulation will be deceived and follow the AC. When Christ later comes, they will realize they are worshipping satan.

Period. As Christ said: take heed no one deceives you.

I already posted the info, it can't be any clearer, maybe if you read it without trying to twist or spin away from what it says you will get it:

If you are buying into the "rescue rapture" false doctrine being peddled by some where the really good Christians will get whisked up to heaven by Christ to spare them from the tribulation and all the rest will be "left behind", it is a pack of lies and directly contradicted by Christ's words.

From Mark 13:

Quote:
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

If anybody ever tells you that the bible says that Christ is coming to whisk away the righteous before the tribulation, ask them why Christ specifically stated that God's elect will go through the tribulation and that God will shorten the days to save them.

See how simple this is:

Quote:
“But in those days, following that distress (tribulation),

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Quoting Christ: FOLLOWING the tribulation you will see Christ coming to gather God's elect ....... the ones which followed Satan "off to heaven" to get away from the tribulation will not even be here anymore when Christ returns.

To answer your question: there is a very good reason it will happen in that sequence where Christ does not return until after the tribulation. God's elect, who WILL be left here during the tribulation, will be called up and tormented (some killed) by the followers of the AC. It is essential that they be here to speak against the AC to help save some from following him. It's written in plain words:

Quote:
You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.//// Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.


can you not understand this simple thing? If all the "good Christians" are whisked away, who would be left to do this? Who would God have to speak through? And Christ says clearly it WILL happen.

I am constantly astonished people don't understand such plain and simple language when Christ very clearly listed the things that will happen (the darkening of the sun, the abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place, etc) and after He lists all these things He says:

"Then you will see the Son of many coming."

Quote:
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

Quote:
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Quote:
Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.

Quote:
20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

24 “But in those days, following that distress,

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.


OK, I'll summarize what He said:

1) God will reduce the days of tribulation for the sake of God's elect. Does that sound like Christ whisked all His people away before the trib? Who can fail to understand?

2) False Christs will appear and perform great wonders and deceive people, even God's elect (some of them will fall). If anyone says "There is the Messiah", do not believe them.

3) The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light, stars will fall and the heavens will be shaken.

4) “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."

From second Thessalonians:

Quote:
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, do not become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.



Could not be clearer.

[bountyhunter]

I don't think you know what the harpazo (rapture) is.
The anti-Christ is a man empowered by Satan and he isn't coming in the clouds.

He is a supernatural being who "will show signs and great wonders" according to Christ. He will claim to be Christ and he will be believed by all who do not understand that the AC will come first claiming to be Christ. Period. They will follow him to their destruction.

As to Thess 4:16:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17New International Version (NIV)

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

We all know that Christ is coming down, the point is WHEN? And the answer, given by Christ, is after the tribulation. If the "dead in Christ" go first in line, who cares? The point is all who did not follow the AC will be transformed to spiritual bodies and taken to heaven by Christ.

[bountyhunter]

I don't think you know what the harpazo (rapture) is.


1 Thess 4:16-18


Do you see the "we who are alive and remain"? That's the church during that day.

It's pretty clear.

depends on whether you actually source it.

http://biblicaleschatology.org/tag/meet-the-lord-in-the-air/

[Not a Cook]

bountyhunter - I, too, understand the Scriptures to teach that the church will enter into and endure through the tribulation. In fact, I hold firmly to that interpretation. However, I do not divide with any of my brethren who hold otherwise due to their understanding of this particular topic.

Perhaps I misunderstood some of your posts, but it appears that you're concerned that followers of Christ who expect a pre-trib rapture will be deceived by the antichrist when he is revealed and that they will follow him. If so, I understand your concern, but I would like to encourage you by reminding you that Matthew 24:24 (NKJV) reads thus:

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Note the "if possible". Given this verse and a number of others, I do not believe it will be possible for the elect to be deceived into following the antichrist when he appears. Do you believe otherwise?

[Just Dave]

Bountyhunter I sourced it from the Bible (NKJV)

bountyhunter - I, too, understand the Scriptures to teach that the church will enter into and endure through the tribulation. In fact, I hold firmly to that interpretation. However, I do not divide with any of my brethren who hold otherwise due to their understanding of this particular topic.

Perhaps I misunderstood some of your posts, but it appears that you're concerned that followers of Christ who expect a pre-trib rapture will be deceived by the antichrist when he is revealed and that they will follow him. If so, I understand your concern, but I would like to encourage you by reminding you that Matthew 24:24 (NKJV) reads thus:

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Note the "if possible". Given this verse and a number of others, I do not believe it will be possible for the elect to be deceived into following the antichrist when he appears. Do you believe otherwise?

Exactly.
Bountyhunter makes the assertion that Christians will be deceived and follow the anti-Christ which is impossible (can't be a follower of Christ, filled with His Spirit and follow Satan at the same time).
He also believes that pre-trib rapture view (which I hold) is a destructive heresy
At this point the only reason why I respond to his post on this matter is for others who are reading this thread.

[Not a Cook]

At this point the only reason why I respond to his post on this matter is for others who are reading this thread.

Totally understood!

For the sake of anyone else reading this thread, I think it's worth noting that Just Dave and I tend to be in agreement on most threads that come up in this "Discussions of Faith" subforum, EVEN THOUGH we disagree in our interpretations of when the rapture will occur and on various other eschatological issues.

It is vitally important that we study the Scriptures for ourselves and make sure that the doctrines we hold are exegeted properly from the Scriptures and not of any man-made or demonic interpretations. That said, when it comes to matters of eschatology, though they are very important (after all, the Scripture deals quite a bit with eschatological issues), I do not believe that they are issues to divide over, but rather issues to be studied and discussed among brethren.

Christ never told us that the world would know us by our eschatological beliefs, but He did tell us,
John 13:35 (NKJV)

A person's salvation is not dependent on their having any particular understanding of eschatology. We must agree on many things, but I believe there is room for gracious disagreement when it comes to eschatology.

On matters such as this, let us be careful to bear with one another in love as we are commanded to do in Ephesians 4.

To be clear: I do NOT think anyone here is being divisive (although admittedly I haven't watched this thread closely), but I know that the discussion of eschatological issues in general often tends toward unnecessary divisiveness, and my hope is that such will not occur here.

[Just Dave]

Totally understood!

For the sake of anyone else reading this thread, I think it's worth noting that Just Dave and I tend to be in agreement on most threads that come up in this "Discussions of Faith" subforum, EVEN THOUGH we disagree in our interpretations of when the rapture will occur and on various other eschatological issues.

It is vitally important that we study the Scriptures for ourselves and make sure that the doctrines we hold are exegeted properly from the Scriptures and not of any man-made or demonic interpretations. That said, when it comes to matters of eschatology, though they are very important (after all, the Scripture deals quite a bit with eschatological issues), I do not believe that they are issues to divide over, but rather issues to be studied and discussed among brethren.

Christ never told us that the world would know us by our eschatological beliefs, but He did tell us,
John 13:35 (NKJV)

A person's salvation is not dependent on their having any particular understanding of eschatology. We must agree on many things, but I believe there is room for gracious disagreement when it comes to eschatology.

On matters such as this, let us be careful to bear with one another in love as we are commanded to do in Ephesians 4.

To be clear: I do NOT think anyone here is being divisive (although admittedly I haven't watched this thread closely), but I know that the discussion of eschatological issues in general often tends toward unnecessary divisiveness, and my hope is that such will not occur here.

I agree 100%

[bountyhunter]

Additional references:

http://openoureyeslord.com/2011/05/25/1-thess-417-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cmeet-the-lord-in-the-air%E2%80%9D-in-the-original-greek/

the NIV of 1 Thess 4:17 has, “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” The other versions are similar and equally reliable. In my forthcoming commentary on 1 and 2 Thessalonians (Zondervan) I opted to translate verse 17 as: “we who still live and remain will be taken up together with [those who were dead] in the clouds to welcome the Lord in the air.” “To meet,” a verb in most versions, represents a Greek preposition and noun, “for a meeting” (eis apantesin). Nevertheless, a verb in English captures the original Greek equally well.

But one might ask, what happens after the Christians meet the Lord in the air? Where do they go? Paul does not say, neither here or in the parallel in 1 Cor 15:52.

Does Paul give any indication of what is to follow? Apparently so: the Greek “meeting” [1] is not simply going to encounter someone. Rather it refers to “the action of going out to meet an arrival, especially as a mark of honour.” [2] When a dignitary came to visit a city in those days, the inhabitants would pay him tribute by going out of the city to meet him at the proper time. They would then accompany him back to the city which he was planning to enter. This is what happens in John 12:13, where the crowd on Palm Sunday comes out of Jerusalem to meet Jesus (upantesis) and to accompany him back in to the city. Then too, the Olivet Discourse contains the metaphor of a ruler coming to the city, which he enters “when you see all these things: know that he is near, right at the gates” (Matt 24:33 NJB). [3] What makes Paul’s language unusual is that he turns the horizontal action of the dignitary’s approach, reception and entrance into a gated city into a vertical action: when Christ comes, he “descends” to his domain, and his subjects “ascend to the clouds, to the air,” as befits his honor and glory. [4]

Based on this conventional usage of “meeting” (apantesis), it may be concluded with a high degree of certainty that Jesus will come to the air; resurrected believers and then living ones will ascend to honor him; then they will immediately accompany him back to the earth. [5] This lies very close to the thought of 2 Thess 1:10 (GNB) – “when he comes on that Day to receive glory from all his people and honour from all who believe.”

Neither here or in any other verse does Paul speak of a Rapture where Christians go to heaven, with the world “left behind” to suffer the tribulation.

https://blograpture.wordpress.com/category/latin-rapturo-greek-harpazo-english-caught-up/

“rapture” doesn’t appear in the inspired word of God. The meaning is derived from the Latin word “rapturo” meaning “caught up“. The rapture of the saints is an amazing revelation intended to instill hope in believers enduring persecution. The premier verse concerning the doctrine of the rapture, 1 Thess 4:14-18, was written to a church to whom Paul said a few verses prior, “[You] received the word in much affliction (1:5)…we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation…(3:4)” The believers in Thessalonica were undergoing significant persecution at the hands of both Jew and Gentile antagonists. Paul wrote them because he had concern for their faith lest his “labor [was] in vain” (3:5). He was giving them a hope of the things to come. The doctrine of the rapture was meant to enable believers undergoing persecution to fix their eyes on their ultimate glory in Christ, not give them a false escapism mentality.

[Doheny]

No where does it state that Moses and Elijah will return. It says the two witnesses would be killed for a while and then would be raised up again to witness for God. We non-dispensationalists understand that the church at Rome buried the Bible and began other teachings. They killed the bible for a time. Then Guttenberg and his printing press, along with Luther and the Reformers brought the two witnesses back to life. The Old Testment, and the New Testament. The two Witnesses that give the testimony of God.

So in a nutshell you're saying the OT and the NT are the two witnesses?

That's interesting, I never heard that interpretation before.

[POLICESTATE]

It's pretty clear. (BTW 1st Thess comes before 2nd Thess)

Notice the 'comfort one another with these words" v18? Telling the church that we're going to be here to battle the anti-Christ and deal with God's wrath isn't very comforting.

Now study 1 Thess 4:16-18 and then read John's gospel chapter 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you,I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." Now compare that with the second half of 1 Thess 4:17.

Notice in the gospel of John the tribulation isn't mentioned? Do you know why? Because the gospel of John is addressed to believers, so instead of the trib we get John 14:3

[bountyhunter]

bountyhunter - I, too, understand the Scriptures to teach that the church will enter into and endure through the tribulation. In fact, I hold firmly to that interpretation. However, I do not divide with any of my brethren who hold otherwise due to their understanding of this particular topic.

Perhaps I misunderstood some of your posts, but it appears that you're concerned that followers of Christ who expect a pre-trib rapture will be deceived by the antichrist when he is revealed and that they will follow him. If so, I understand your concern, but I would like to encourage you by reminding you that Matthew 24:24 (NKJV) reads thus:

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Note the "if possible". Given this verse and a number of others, I do not believe it will be possible for the elect to be deceived into following the antichrist when he appears. Do you believe otherwise?

Of course it will be possible. Every person in flesh is subject to weakness. If God's elect were impervious to the AC, then why is it that God had to shorten the days of the tribulation for them otherwise "no flesh would be saved". (Mark 13-20) But for the sake of the elect, the days were shortened.

but it appears that you're concerned that followers of Christ who expect a pre-trib rapture will be deceived by the antichrist when he is revealed and that they will follow him.

That is absolutely what is going to happen. The tribulation will occur (as Christ has stated) and only after turmoil reigns on earth will the AC appear claiming to be Christ working "miracles" (great signs and wonders) and possibly even "bring peace" to the wars which will be going on then.

The "christians" who believe in pre-trib rapture will see him as Christ and be anxious to follow him away from the hell which will be on earth in those days. They will believe that is the fulifllment of scripture (Him coming to take them away)..... it is actually as foretold in scripture, but to their destruction since it is not Christ's return but the anti christ.


My opinion on the meaning of this:

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Remember that the AC comes to earth impersonating Christ and claiming to be the prince of peace. That means he will play that role, but to do evil things such as wholesale killing of those who will not worship him: he will have "his people" for that to protect his image as a peace maker. The AC will have minions or beings with him to carry this out, so it will very likely be that the AC will be the head of a very large (one world order) of whom MANY claim to be "of Christ" (working for him) and some of them will also have supernatural powers which they will use to convince people of this.... hence the warning about false messiahs and prophets.

At any rate to answer your question: yes, people will be deceived maybe even some of God's elect.

[Not a Cook]

Of course it will be possible. Every person in flesh is subject to weakness. If God's elect were impervious to the AC, then why is it that God had to shorten the days of the tribulation for them otherwise "no flesh would be saved". (Mark 13-20) But for the sake of the elect, the days were shortened.



That is absolutely what is going to happen. The tribulation will occur (as Christ has stated) and only after turmoil reigns on earth will the AC appear claiming to be Christ working "miracles" (great signs and wonders) and possibly even "bring peace" to the wars which will be going on then.

The "christians" who believe in pre-trib rapture will see him as Christ and be anxious to follow him away from the hell which will be on earth in those days. They will believe that is the fulifllment of scripture (Him coming to take them away)..... it is actually as foretold in scripture, but to their destruction since it is not Christ's return but the anti christ.

Interesting. What about John 10:27-30 (NKJV)?


In John 10:1-6 (NKJV) Christ taught,
Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

In these two passages we see that no one can snatch Christ's sheep from Him, nor will His sheep follow a stranger (and the antichrist would most definitely be a stranger to the elect). Please don't misunderstand me... I believe MANY people will be deceived by the antichrist and (sadly) will follow him. I just don't believe that any of those who actually belong to Christ will ever follow the antichrist.

Consider also Revelation 14:9-11 (NKJV),


Those who will be deceived and follow the antichrist shall worship the beast and his image and receive his mark AND they shall suffer God's wrath and be tormented with fire and brimstone. Those who follow antichrist cannot therefor belong to Christ simply because those who belong to Christ will not suffer God's wrath nor be tormented forever.