German Wings Co-Pilot

[Just Dave]

But those are the temporal consequences. Those aren't the everlasting consequences.

I'm not trying to mess or troll you...I'm trying to get a good answer for why stealing a piece of gum results in the same punishment as raping and murdering a bajillion people. Honest search for understanding.

It doesn't, on this side of eternity and the other side of eternity.
If you're speaking biblically on the matter the bible makes it clear that there are 'hotter places in hell'. (Matt. 10:15)
God's judgement is righteous, holy, perfect, just and eternal.. humans are incapable of this.
The co-pilot would be an example.
We can't charge or punish him with mass murder because he is dead, so from our perspective this would be justice denied.

Likewise people like John Wayne Gacy who was tried and executed for multiple murders was only punished once (executed) for the rape, torture and murders of many. We can't execute him multiple times so in this case justice was never complete from our perspective.

However, both the co-pilot and Gacy are being punished eternally for their sins. Even though they are out of the reach of man justice is still being served.

[bigmike82]

If you're speaking biblically on the matter the bible makes it clear that there are 'hotter places in hell'. (Matt. 10:15)

Doesn't that passage simply mean that being killed by fire and brimstone (which is relatively quick I'm assuming) is less painful than an eternity in hell?

[Just Dave]

Doesn't that passage simply mean that being killed by fire and brimstone (which is relatively quick I'm assuming) is less painful than an eternity in hell?

Jesus is talking about a future event, Judgement Day. He's telling the religious leaders that S&G will not be held to the same high standard that they will be held to.
This is because the religious leaders have more to be accountable for.

God did judge S&G with fire and brimstone but the individuals who lived in that city and rebelled against God are still waiting for their judgement.

Revelation 20:11-15 gives the details of that event.

[Decoligny]

In the tithing thread you said we are not bound by the OT, but now you're quoting it and applying it to us?

To quote my Oklahoma relatives when dealing with people using your flawed logic "Well, Bless your little heart".

I am not putting us under the OT law in any way.

Acknowledging that sin exists, and that even God in his word acknowledged that there were sins, great sins, sins worthy of death, and even an unforgivable sin, in no way diminishes the fact that we are forgiven by grace, and not by adherence to the law.

If you only commit one sin in you life, let's say you told one small lie, and you haven't repented, asked forgiveness and accepted Jesus as your savior, you will burn in hell just the same as Stalin, who ordered the murder of millions of his own people.

Conversely, if you commit just as many murders as Stalin, repent, ask forgiveness and accept Jesus as your savior, you will go to Heaven.

The difference in the levels of sin do not come into play on the eternal realm, they come into play on the temporal realm.

The lie to your mother about eating the last cookie, doesn't affect anyone other than yourself, and maybe your mother if she held a real grudge about your lie.

The murder of millions affects the millions, and everyone who knew those millions.

Different levels of sin in regard to the impact. Not different levels of sin in regard to the punishment.

[Doheny]

To quote my Oklahoma relatives when dealing with people using your flawed logic "Well, Bless your little heart".

I am not putting us under the OT law in any way.

Acknowledging that sin exists, and that even God in his word acknowledged that there were sins, great sins, sins worthy of death, and even an unforgivable sin, in no way diminishes the fact that we are forgiven by grace, and not by adherence to the law.

If you only commit one sin in you life, let's say you told one small lie, and you haven't repented, asked forgiveness and accepted Jesus as your savior, you will burn in hell just the same as Stalin, who ordered the murder of millions of his own people.

Conversely, if you commit just as many murders as Stalin, repent, ask forgiveness and accept Jesus as your savior, you will go to Heaven.

The difference in the levels of sin do not come into play on the eternal realm, they come into play on the temporal realm.

The lie to your mother about eating the last cookie, doesn't affect anyone other than yourself, and maybe your mother if she held a real grudge about your lie.

The murder of millions affects the millions, and everyone who knew those millions.

Different levels of sin in regard to the impact. Not different levels of sin in regard to the punishment.

LOL Where's that grasping at straws smiley?

Less is more. You should stop while you're ahead.

[Not a Cook]

But those are the temporal consequences. Those aren't the everlasting consequences.

I'm not trying to mess or troll you...I'm trying to get a good answer for why stealing a piece of gum results in the same punishment as raping and murdering a bajillion people. Honest search for understanding.

Good question, and although Just Dave has already given a great response, I'd like to add a little bit about a very specific doctrine that concerns your questions. Forewarning: I wouldn't normally bring this point up because there are differences of understanding among brothers regarding this specific point of doctrine and it can be unnecessarily divisive; however, I think it is relevant to your question and will provide you with another perspective to consider. As a disclaimer, I know that many (perhaps most) of the other Christians here will disagree with me about this point - thankfully though, it is a "non-essential" where there is room for disagreements without breaking fellowship with one another. Now, after that LONG forewarning and explanation, here goes: I believe the Scriptures teach that all those who are not saved by Christ will suffer destruction. Literal destruction. Another phrase some folks use is "cessation of being". This will be the ultimate destiny for all those who reject Christ. So, all sinners (apart from Christ's covering) will receive the same ultimate sentence. HOWEVER (and this is an important point), that does NOT mean that there won't be differing degrees to which people suffer God's wrath BEFORE they are ultimately destroyed. In other words, all people who aren't saved by Christ will be destroyed (same, common fate), but they won't all have to endure the same, exact wrath as everyone else before that destruction. Perhaps "the little old lady who wouldn't hurt a fly" suffers "almost nothing" for a very short time before destruction; whereas Hitler would suffer unfathomable pain for millions of years. In your analogy, the "gum theft" would result in relatively little pain, whereas the "raping and murdering" would result in horrifically more pain and/or perhaps pain of a much longer duration. I don't know exactly how it will work, but I do know that God is just and that every individual who is not saved by Christ will be judged by God according to their own individual works and receive their just due, and ultimately all of them will be destroyed by Him. Here's a relevant passage for you to consider from Revelation 20:11-15 (NKJV),

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that each was judged "according to his works" and then ultimately each of them suffered destruction (the second death) in the lake of fire.

Another relevant verse for your to consider would be what Christ told His apostles in Matthew 10:28 (NKJV),

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I hope that helps answer your question, and I hope that in offering this response I haven't unnecessarily offended any of my brothers here.

[Packer]

But what if he believed he was taking everyone to heaven and doing them a favor, what if he believed in his heart God wanted him to do this?

for those who insist its intent that counts, he is in heaven

[Just Dave]

Good question, and although Just Dave has already given a great response, I'd like to add a little bit about a very specific doctrine that concerns your questions. Forewarning: I wouldn't normally bring this point up because there are differences of understanding among brothers regarding this specific point of doctrine and it can be unnecessarily divisive; however, I think it is relevant to your question and will provide you with another perspective to consider. As a disclaimer, I know that many (perhaps most) of the other Christians here will disagree with me about this point - thankfully though, it is a "non-essential" where there is room for disagreements without breaking fellowship with one another. Now, after that LONG forewarning and explanation, here goes: I believe the Scriptures teach that all those who are not saved by Christ will suffer destruction. Literal destruction. Another phrase some folks use is "cessation of being". This will be the ultimate destiny for all those who reject Christ. So, all sinners (apart from Christ's covering) will receive the same ultimate sentence. HOWEVER (and this is an important point), that does NOT mean that there won't be differing degrees to which people suffer God's wrath BEFORE they are ultimately destroyed. In other words, all people who aren't saved by Christ will be destroyed (same, common fate), but they won't all have to endure the same, exact wrath as everyone else before that destruction. Perhaps "the little old lady who wouldn't hurt a fly" suffers "almost nothing" for a very short time before destruction; whereas Hitler would suffer unfathomable pain for millions of years. In your analogy, the "gum theft" would result in relatively little pain, whereas the "raping and murdering" would result in horrifically more pain and/or perhaps pain of a much longer duration. I don't know exactly how it will work, but I do know that God is just and that every individual who is not saved by Christ will be judged by God according to their own individual works and receive their just due, and ultimately all of them will be destroyed by Him. Here's a relevant passage for you to consider from Revelation 20:11-15 (NKJV),

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that each was judged "according to his works" and then ultimately each of them suffered destruction (the second death) in the lake of fire.

Another relevant verse for your to consider would be what Christ told His apostles in Matthew 10:28 (NKJV),

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I hope that helps answer your question, and I hope that in offering this response I haven't unnecessarily offended any of my brothers here.

Annihilationism?

[hasserl]

It doesn't, on this side of eternity and the other side of eternity.
If you're speaking biblically on the matter the bible makes it clear that there are 'hotter places in hell'. (Matt. 10:15)
God's judgement is righteous, holy, perfect, just and eternal.. humans are incapable of this.
The co-pilot would be an example.
We can't charge or punish him with mass murder because he is dead, so from our perspective this would be justice denied.

Likewise people like John Wayne Gacy who was tried and executed for multiple murders was only punished once (executed) for the rape, torture and murders of many. We can't execute him multiple times so in this case justice was never complete from our perspective.

However, both the co-pilot and Gacy are being punished eternally for their sins. Even though they are out of the reach of man justice is still being served.

Sorry Dave, you don't get to decide who is being punished in hell, it's not up to you, and no, you do not know.

[Decoligny]

LOL Where's that grasping at straws smiley?

Less is more. You should stop while you're ahead.

You want less is more?

You asked "Besides, where does it say sins have ranking?"

I showed examples from scripture where there are sins, great sins, sins worthy of death, and even an unforgivable sin. Sure looks like rankings to me.

Don't know where you came up with me putting us under OT law.

Now, where is that "Shut up and color" smiley?

[Not a Cook]

Annihilationism?

Just Dave - I hope I haven't thrown you for too much of a loop considering we agree on most topics that've been discussed on this subforum. We obviously agree on the "biggies" (e.g. who Christ is, salvation in Him, discipleship, conduct of the church, etc.) but hold to differing eschatologies. In brief response to your question, "yes and no".

Technically speaking, I hold to the understanding usually referred to as "conditional immortality". Conditional immortality holds to the same "end game" as annhilationism, but the reasoning differs at key points. They often get conflated with one another, but there are some important differences.

That said, if you'd like to discuss it, I'd be happy to, but it may be better to have such a discussion in another thread or via PM.

[CandG]

"German Wings Co-Pilot"

As I was quickly scrolling down the main calguns page, I mistakenly thought I saw this thread title posted in the "Jobs wanted/jobs offered" forum.

[Doheny]

You want less is more?



You asked "Besides, where does it say sins have ranking?"



I showed examples from scripture where there are sins, great sins, sins worthy of death, and even an unforgivable sin. Sure looks like rankings to me.



Don't know where you came up with me putting us under OT law.



Now, where is that "Shut up and color" smiley?

You slay me.

The more you post, the more Pharisee-like you appear. That's not an insult, since it may be your intent.

[Doheny]

"German Wings Co-Pilot"

As I was quickly scrolling down the main calguns page, I mistakenly thought I saw this thread title posted in the "Jobs wanted/jobs offered" forum.

Well, they do have a job opening.

[Decoligny]

You slay me.

The more you post, the more Pharisee-like you appear. That's not an insult, since it may be your intent.

Been considering it.


And there you have it. Posts that contain nothing but vague accusations and name calling.

No content. No actual examples.

Vacuous.