German Wings Co-Pilot

[Not a Cook]

Nice. I guess some of us feel the need to just make things up that we could not possibly know when confronted with a conflict in what we have been told to believe and what actually is.

I attended church and private Christian schools since 1st grade. I believed everything I was fed for years and only started questioning my beliefs when I started college. I BELIEVED because I didn't know better and when I, in my innocence, accepted Christ as my savior I meant it with all my heart. I lived my life for Christ and witnessed to others (converted my own mother, in fact) for over 10 years. Now, because I have grown up, developed my critical thinking skills, and decided religion was a control system and a farce, you insinuate that I was never saved in the first place in order to preserve the integrity of your holy book. Because to admit that I could have been sincere in my early life and, in fact, was saved is to invite the possibility that either a non believer can still go to heaven or that one can lose their salvation once saved.

Yes, religions can be about controlling people, and following religions will unfortunately lead (ultimately) to destruction. You may have sincerely followed whatever religion, but religion will always disappoint.

However, following Christ is NOT about following a religion. In fact, following a religion often gets in the way/prevents many folks from ever getting to know Christ personally and from actually following Him. He wants to be not only your Savior, Master, and Judge, but also your Friend. Unlike religion, Christ will not fail you. You may have been sincere in following a religion, but Christ never called us to follow a religion. He calls us to follow Him and get to know Him personally. To know Him, to trust Him, and to love Him.

At the present moment you unfortunately sound like one of the folks from Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) who have never known the Lord, though you have sincerely followed a religion,
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

By the way, we read in James of faith that does not save. You mentioned you believed until you began questioning. However, until you question, what is belief? Abraham questioned how God could command Him to sacrifice his son - the very son whom God gave him and of which He prophesied. Abraham, though, at this "crisis of faith" didn't stop believing, but rather really started to trust the Lord. He reasoned that God would raise his son from the dead, because Abraham trusted God even when things didn't appear to make sense. Read about it in Hebrews 11 and other passages. True faith trusts God.

You have known religion; now you need to come to know the Lord who loves you and gave Himself up to death to save you. It is not too late for you to begin following Christ and avoid the ultimate fate of those in the Matthew passage above.

[bountyhunter]

He was not nuts. He planned this. He was not "sick". He was not "nuts". He was EVIL!!! Lot's of people are nuts. They don't kill 150 people for their own gratification.

Really? No crazy people ever killed people.... OK, we'll make one exception and let you judge everybody.

[bountyhunter]

Yes, religions can be about controlling people, and following religions will unfortunately lead (ultimately) to destruction.

It always amazes me how few people realize that God and religion are two completely different things. God is God and religion is almost always man's corrupt attempt to exploit God in order to gain power and control over others as well as stealing wealth.

Interesting how much of Christ's fury was directed at the church of His time and also the crooks who ran it. I can only imagine what He would say today.

When Christ said "I will build my church" it was a specific belief system not a building or denomination. All that has followed after where the denominations break apart and attack each other are man's works.

Christ's teachings are so simple they are hard to corrupt, so men had to try harder and start twisting things and telling you that you had to go to them to get salvation.

God is simple, religion is generally corrupt.

[hasserl]

Great Scripture references! Thanks for adding to the discussion!

You need scripture reference that we are saved by grace through FAITH?

Seriously, though, the basics include the fact that faith is by God's grace and is God's work. Consider John 6:28-29 (NKJV),

Faith is God's work in us. We didn't start it, and we're not capable of throwing it away. Faith is God's work in us and it is to His glory. We didn't do anything to save ourselves.

You are right, faith is God's work in us, I've never posted anything to the contrary. But you seem to have forgotten that we are free to reject faith. Right? Or do you need a scripture reference?

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. (It is God who comes to us, not the other way around; we only receive him and let him in. But we can refuse to allow him in)

Isaiah 5:4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 12:48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Luke 12:9 but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.


Or we can turn from him:

Deuteronomy 32:18 You neglected the Rock who begot you, And forgot the God who gave you birth.

Jeremiah 3:19 Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me. (so it is possible to turn away from following God)


Jeremiah 2:21 Yet I planted you a choice vine, A completely faithful seed How then have you turned yourself before Me Into the degenerate shoots of a foreign vine? (WE can turn ourselves before God)

Hebrews 10:35-39 Therefore do not throw away your confidenceand if he shrinks backand then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (we can "fall away")

Galations 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (again, we can "fall away" from grace)

Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous. (indicating those he is speaking of previously were in the Book of LIfe, before being blotted out of it)

Again, go back to the basics. What is it that brings salvation? Faith.

Is it possible to lose faith? Yes it is (see above)

[hasserl]

Nice. I guess some of us feel the need to just make things up that we could not possibly know when confronted with a conflict in what we have been told to believe and what actually is.

I attended church and private Christian schools since 1st grade. I believed everything I was fed for years and only started questioning my beliefs when I started college. I BELIEVED because I didn't know better and when I, in my innocence, accepted Christ as my savior I meant it with all my heart. I lived my life for Christ and witnessed to others (converted my own mother, in fact) for over 10 years. Now, because I have grown up, developed my critical thinking skills, and decided religion was a control system and a farce, you insinuate that I was never saved in the first place in order to preserve the integrity of your holy book. Because to admit that I could have been sincere in my early life and, in fact, was saved is to invite the possibility that either a non believer can still go to heaven or that one can lose their salvation once saved.

I'm sorry you've lost the faith you once had, but thank you for pointing out the obvious logical flaws in this man's thinking.

Yes, religions can be about controlling people, and following religions will unfortunately lead (ultimately) to destruction. You may have sincerely followed whatever religion, but religion will always disappoint.

However, following Christ is NOT about following a religion. In fact, following a religion often gets in the way/prevents many folks from ever getting to know Christ personally and from actually following Him. He wants to be not only your Savior, Master, and Judge, but also your Friend. Unlike religion, Christ will not fail you. You may have been sincere in following a religion, but Christ never called us to follow a religion. He calls us to follow Him and get to know Him personally. To know Him, to trust Him, and to love Him.

At the present moment you unfortunately sound like one of the folks from Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) who have never known the Lord, though you have sincerely followed a religion,


By the way, we read in James of faith that does not save. You mentioned you believed until you began questioning. However, until you question, what is belief? Abraham questioned how God could command Him to sacrifice his son - the very son whom God gave him and of which He prophesied. Abraham, though, at this "crisis of faith" didn't stop believing, but rather really started to trust the Lord. He reasoned that God would raise his son from the dead, because Abraham trusted God even when things didn't appear to make sense. Read about it in Hebrews 11 and other passages. True faith trusts God.

You have known religion; now you need to come to know the Lord who loves you and gave Himself up to death to save you. It is not too late for you to begin following Christ and avoid the ultimate fate of those in the Matthew passage above.

Face it, your point about those who believe they were Christians, but they never really were, is offensive, in more ways than one.

I've already rejected your whole doctrine of so called "saving faith", we've already had that discussion, which you walked away from IIRC, said you wouldn't discuss it with me any longer. Apparently there is more to your home-brewed theology that is worthy of rejection.

[eb47]

[QUOTE=Not a Cook;16103119]Nope... you're putting words in my mouth. I thought I clearly indicated that someone that rejects Christ was never saved to begin with. Is that not clear?

So...was Peter not saved from the beginning of his ministry? He denied Jesus three times. The Bible mentions numerous times of falling away and having their names being blotted out to name only two examples. Once you accept Jesus, now what? Kick back? The potter broke the vessel and made a new vessel. Jesus loves and accepts us as we are but loves us too much to leave us the way we come to him. Where is your fruits? Where is your talent? Is it buried in the world? The five virgins were found with no oil and asleep. They were initially invited but we're denied access for not being prepared. Jesus will deny the worker of iniquity, not the faithful servant. Repent in a layman term: I was walking away from Jesus, now I'm walking towards Jesus (180 turn). Not perfect but faithful and sincere.

[Not a Cook]

I'm sorry you've lost the faith you once had, but thank you for pointing out the obvious logical flaws in this man's thinking.



Face it, your point about those who believe they were Christians, but they never really were, is offensive, in more ways than one.

Ahh... but the gospel of Christ is offensive to those who are perishing.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)

Do you not think that the folks whom Christ will speak thus to will find what He will say to be offensive?

But let me make sure I understand you: you think that asocial penguin knew Christ and then rejected Him, so that he was saved but is now lost? Wow!

I've already rejected your whole doctrine of so called "saving faith", we've already had that discussion, which you walked away from IIRC, said you wouldn't discuss it with me any longer. Apparently there is more to your home-brewed theology that is worthy of rejection.

I believe you are referring to this post: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...9&postcount=59. I ended that conversation with you due to your divisiveness, not for anything to do with your theology. I grew tired of having you repeatedly mischaracterize my beliefs and weary of your repeatedly bringing serious accusations against multiple folks (from another CG'er to Billy Graham to John MacArthur, etc.), including elders.

I am grateful that, in this thread, you have not engaged in the same pattern of mis-characterizations and accusations, and I commend you for that. However, I would appreciate it if you would not derogatorily assign labels like "your home-brewed theology" to my beliefs simply because you don't agree with them.

[Not a Cook]

Nope... you're putting words in my mouth. I thought I clearly indicated that someone that rejects Christ was never saved to begin with. Is that not clear?

So...was Peter not saved from the beginning of his ministry? He denied Jesus three times.

In brief, "No; Peter was not saved from the beginning of his ministry." To expound: does Matthew 16:23 (NKJV) below sound like something Christ would say to someone who was saved?


That is a lot to respond to; forgive me if I try to keep this brief.

The Bible mentions numerous times of falling away and having their names being blotted out to name only two examples.

I'd honestly be happy to look at any passages you have in mind regarding falling away or blotting out. I assume I know which you're thinking of, but want to make sure before I address them. I can't think of any Scripture passages which indicate God will blot out the names of those who are appointed to eternal life - can you?

Once you accept Jesus, now what? Kick back?

Once we receive new life in Christ, we are to follow Him. To keep His commandments. To go and make disciples for Him, teaching them to observe whatsoever things He has commanded us. "Kick back" has nothing to do with it.

The potter broke the vessel and made a new vessel. Jesus loves and accepts us as we are but loves us too much to leave us the way we come to him. Where is your fruits? Where is your talent? Is it buried in the world? The five virgins were found with no oil and asleep. They were initially invited but we're denied access for not being prepared. Jesus will deny the worker of iniquity, not the faithful servant. Repent in a layman term: I was walking away from Jesus, now I'm walking towards Jesus (180 turn). Not perfect but faithful and sincere.

Umm... we agree!? I'm not sure how else to respond. Did you think we did not agree on the above things you wrote?

[Not a Cook]

You need scripture reference that we are saved by grace through FAITH?

Being saved by grace through faith is not that for which I asking for scripture references. I was asking for scriptural references to support your claims that you made in post #69. Instead of saying that we had misinterpreted passages, you simply said, "Wow, fail all over the place" and accused "some of [us]" of going "to great lengths to concoct fanciful doctrines". Instead of addressing the Scriptures I had posted, you seemingly breezed past them. That isn't helpful for a meaningful discussion about the Scriptures and what they teach. If you want to truly discuss the Scriptures and doctrine, then let's get into the meat of the passages and not ignore them. As such, I'll briefly address each of the passages you posted below.

You are right, faith is God's work in us, I've never posted anything to the contrary. But you seem to have forgotten that we are free to reject faith. Right? Or do you need a scripture reference?

I disagree; I do not believe that those who are appointed unto eternal life are "free to reject faith". I cannot find any indication of such "freedom to reject faith" in the Scriptures. Instead I note verses like this,

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48b (NKJV)

God appoints those who will be saved to eternal life. As many as He has appointed to eternal life will believe. As I've already noted more than once,

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NKJV) God is not only the One Who calls us and Who is the Author of our faith, but He is also the One Who "will do it" - that is, He will sanctify us completely and preserve us blameless at the coming of our Lord.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. (It is God who comes to us, not the other way around; we only receive him and let him in. But we can refuse to allow him in)

I agree with your analysis, except I see no indication here that we can refuse salvation. In context, this passage is not dealing with salvation (although it's often used in evangelistic efforts as if the context were salvation). Christ is speaking to the congregation of Christians at Laodicea and He is calling them back to zeal and repentance. He isn't calling them to salvation in this passage. They're already saved.

Isaiah 5:4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

Where does it say that these folks rejected faith? This is an anthropomorphic passage and, as such, need be carefully studied. God was not surprised (because He is omniscient, after all).

John 12:48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Where do you see that anyone rejecting Christ was appointed to eternal life?

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Yes... they were not willing. Where do you see them rejecting faith?

Luke 12:9 but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.

Again, where do you see that those who deny Him were appointed unto eternal life (or ever had faith in Christ)?

Or we can turn from him:

Deuteronomy 32:18 You neglected the Rock who begot you, And forgot the God who gave you birth.

Notice what else we read in the rest of the Song of Moses (the context of this verse). These are not saved people. Moses is addressing the nation of Israel and how they had rebelled against God.

Deuteronomy 32:5 (NKJV)

Deuteronomy 32:20 (NKJV)

Did you notice that they were "children in whom is no faith", not "children who had rejected faith" or "children who turned away from faith". They never had faith.

Jeremiah 3:19 Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me. (so it is possible to turn away from following God)

Sorry, I don't get "it is possible to turn away from following God" (assuming you mean that the saved can reject faith) from "You shall not... turn away from following Me." Instead, I get the exact opposite: His children shall not turn away from following Him.

Jeremiah 2:21 Yet I planted you a choice vine, A completely faithful seed How then have you turned yourself before Me Into the degenerate shoots of a foreign vine? (WE can turn ourselves before God)

"A completely faithful seed" doesn't mean they had faith. It can just as easily be rendered "seed of reliability". God is pointing out that the seed was good, but instead of loving and serving Him, they chose to worship idols. The generations before them had known the Lord; this generation forsook him. They descended from good seed, so to speak, but they were themselves degenerate. They weren't like their ancestors who put their faith in God.

Hebrews 10:35-39 Therefore do not throw away your confidenceand if he shrinks back

Notice the dichotomy - those who live by faith vs. those who shrink back. Faith vs. non-faith (not "lost faith"). Which one are we who are in Christ? Continue to the next verse,
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (we can "fall away")

I'm guessing you won't like how I interpret this passage. That said, rather than typing out a LONG explanation, I'll just paste this link that offers two possible interpretations, neither one of which has anything to do with losing salvation: http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html (At least you'll know it isn't "home brewed" )

Galations 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (again, we can "fall away" from grace)

Yes... but what does that mean in context? Is it referring to faith in Christ? Is it referring to salvation? No, and no. In context it is referring to those who returned to the law as Peter did (which was discussed earlier in Galatians chapter 2). Peter did not lose his salvation nor his faith, but he did (for a time) fall away from grace into legalism. Thankfully, the Lord used Paul to confront Peter and turn him away from legalism.

Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous. (indicating those he is speaking of previously were in the Book of LIfe, before being blotted out of it)

Surprising passage to point to, but I don't see how David wanting to see his adversaries dead indicates that they were ever saved (i.e. ever had faith) to begin with. Do you? Do you think David's enemies were people who were saved but "fell away from faith"?

Again, go back to the basics. What is it that brings salvation? Faith.

On this point we obviously agree. And that faith is the work of God, as we've already discussed. It is entirely to His glory, hallelujah!

Is it possible to lose faith? Yes it is (see above)

On this point we disagree. Those who are appointed unto eternal life will believe and God will sanctify them completely and preserve them blameless at the coming of Christ.

[hasserl]

Ahh... but the gospel of Christ is offensive to those who are perishing.

Your doctrine is offensive because it offends logic, and because it creates doubt in the mind of the believer. Certainty of salvation is one of the great results that came out of the reformation, breaking free of the bonds of doubt cast on the people by the papists; but you've gone right back to it. Does one really have "saving" faith, or just plain old non saving faith? How is one to tell? How does one know if he is a real Christian or not? This is crap and you should be ashamed of yourself for preaching it. Believe what you will, but by preaching your flawed theology you could cast doubt into the heart of someone reading your posts, and that would be shameful. And since you are so fond of scripture references let me leave you one to think about:

Matthew 18:6 "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

What you are preaching comes dangerously close to this, and if I were you I'd be doing some serious self reflection on what I was preaching to others.

But let me make sure I understand you: you think that asocial penguin knew Christ and then rejected Him, so that he was saved but is now lost? Wow!

I don't know anything about asocial penguin then what he posted. He said "I BELIEVED because I didn't know better and when I, in my innocence, accepted Christ as my savior I meant it with all my heart. I lived my life for Christ and witnessed to others (converted my own mother, in fact) for over 10 years."

And you know this to be untrue? Who the hell are you that you are special and endowed with these insights of others. Yeah, that's offensive.

I believe you are referring to this post: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...9&postcount=59. I ended that conversation with you due to your divisiveness, not for anything to do with your theology. I grew tired of having you repeatedly mischaracterize my beliefs and weary of your repeatedly bringing serious accusations against multiple folks (from another CG'er to Billy Graham to John MacArthur, etc.), including elders.

I am grateful that, in this thread, you have not engaged in the same pattern of mis-characterizations and accusations, and I commend you for that. However, I would appreciate it if you would not derogatorily assign labels like "your home-brewed theology" to my beliefs simply because you don't agree with them.

I have not recanted any of the things I posted and I still cling to them with all my might. You have made your position clear how you do not follow any denomination, and reject all systematic theologies, and that your theology is based solely on your own study, therefore it is home-brewed. That by itself is not derogatory, it is what it is, i.e. it is limited to your own personal abilities. Though I don't believe it to be 100% accurate, as you have sighted references to others, like John MacArthur for instance. So, I think you feign individualism as it seems to promote an image of independent thought, but you do draw from some. And as I pointed out in that other thread, those sources can be flawed, like your own theologies of "saving faith" and "once saved, always saved".

[Doheny]

…<snipped/breavity>…

I was asking for scriptural references to support your claims that you made in post #69. Instead of saying that we had misinterpreted passages, you simply said, "Wow, fail all over the place" and accused "some of [us]" of going "to great lengths to concoct fanciful doctrines". Instead of addressing the Scriptures I had posted, you seemingly breezed past them. That isn't helpful for a meaningful discussion about the Scriptures and what they teach. If you want to truly discuss the Scriptures and doctrine, then let's get into the meat of the passages and not ignore them. As such, I'll briefly address each of the passages you posted below.

Welcome to my world. Be careful, he (hasserl) will soon be asking for an apology.

.

[hasserl]

Being saved by grace through faith is not that for which I asking for scripture references. I was asking for scriptural references to support your claims that you made in post #69. Instead of saying that we had misinterpreted passages, you simply said, "Wow, fail all over the place" and accused "some of [us]" of going "to great lengths to concoct fanciful doctrines". Instead of addressing the Scriptures I had posted, you seemingly breezed past them. That isn't helpful for a meaningful discussion about the Scriptures and what they teach. If you want to truly discuss the Scriptures and doctrine, then let's get into the meat of the passages and not ignore them. As such, I'll briefly address each of the passages you posted below.


I disagree; I do not believe that those who are appointed unto eternal life are "free to reject faith". I cannot find any indication of such "freedom to reject faith" in the Scriptures. Instead I note verses like this,

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48b (NKJV)

God appoints those who will be saved to eternal life. As many as He has appointed to eternal life will believe. As I've already noted more than once,

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NKJV) God is not only the One Who calls us and Who is the Author of our faith, but He is also the One Who "will do it" - that is, He will sanctify us completely and preserve us blameless at the coming of our Lord.


I agree with your analysis, except I see no indication here that we can refuse salvation. In context, this passage is not dealing with salvation (although it's often used in evangelistic efforts as if the context were salvation). Christ is speaking to the congregation of Christians at Laodicea and He is calling them back to zeal and repentance. He isn't calling them to salvation in this passage. They're already saved.


Where does it say that these folks rejected faith? This is an anthropomorphic passage and, as such, need be carefully studied. God was not surprised (because He is omniscient, after all).


Where do you see that anyone rejecting Christ was appointed to eternal life?


Yes... they were not willing. Where do you see them rejecting faith?


Again, where do you see that those who deny Him were appointed unto eternal life (or ever had faith in Christ)?


Notice what else we read in the rest of the Song of Moses (the context of this verse). These are not saved people. Moses is addressing the nation of Israel and how they had rebelled against God.

“They have corrupted themselves;
They are not His children,
Because of their blemish:
A perverse and crooked generation. Deuteronomy 32:5 (NKJV)

And He said: ‘I will hide My face from them,
I will see what their end will be,
For they are a perverse generation,
Children in whom is no faith. Deuteronomy 32:20 (NKJV)

Did you notice that they were "children in whom is no faith", not "children who had rejected faith" or "children who turned away from faith". They never had faith.


Sorry, I don't get "it is possible to turn away from following God" (assuming you mean that the saved can reject faith) from "You shall not... turn away from following Me." Instead, I get the exact opposite: His children shall not turn away from following Him.


"A completely faithful seed" doesn't mean they had faith. It can just as easily be rendered "seed of reliability". God is pointing out that the seed was good, but instead of loving and serving Him, they chose to worship idols. The generations before them had known the Lord; this generation forsook him. They descended from good seed, so to speak, but they were themselves degenerate. They weren't like their ancestors who put their faith in God.


Notice the dichotomy - those who live by faith vs. those who shrink back. Faith vs. non-faith (not "lost faith"). Which one are we who are in Christ? Continue to the next verse,
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


I'm guessing you won't like how I interpret this passage. That said, rather than typing out a LONG explanation, I'll just paste this link that offers two possible interpretations, neither one of which has anything to do with losing salvation: http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html (At least you'll know it isn't "home brewed" )


Yes... but what does that mean in context? Is it referring to faith in Christ? Is it referring to salvation? No, and no. In context it is referring to those who returned to the law as Peter did (which was discussed earlier in Galatians chapter 2). Peter did not lose his salvation nor his faith, but he did (for a time) fall away from grace into legalism. Thankfully, the Lord used Paul to confront Peter and turn him away from legalism.


Surprising passage to point to, but I don't see how David wanting to see his adversaries dead indicates that they were ever saved (i.e. ever had faith) to begin with. Do you? Do you think David's enemies were people who were saved but "fell away from faith"?

On this point we obviously agree. And that faith is the work of God, as we've already discussed. It is entirely to His glory, hallelujah!

On this point we disagree. Those who are appointed unto eternal life will believe and God will sanctify them completely and preserve them blameless at the coming of Christ.

I'm not up to doing a point by point rebuttal, but I will say that your theology is strange and heterodox to me. I've spent my life in the church and have studied early church history, the reformation and theology for many years. I'm no spring chicken, being in the 2nd half of my 5th decade of life. I've served my congregation as Elder and as Chairman. I've been at the side of the sick and dying and prayed with them. And I've witnessed the birth and baptism of new believers. I've watched the babies born grow up into adult hood in the faith. I am no stranger to the Christian faith, but I don't recognize what you preach. Your words are foreign to me and they are not comforting at all. You preach that God chooses some he is going to save and to hell with everyone else. And those who he chooses to save have no say on the matter, neither do those he damns. That's it, huh? What a wicked cruel lord you serve, he sure isn't' the God I know. And he isn't the God revealed in the scriptures. That's a strange religion, no wonder you won't put a name on it.

[hasserl]

Welcome to my world. Be careful, he (hasserl) will soon be asking for an apology.

.

Personal insults, is that what you learn from Rick Warren? Nice Christian behavior there Doheny.

[Doheny]

Personal insults, is that what you learn from Rick Warren? Nice Christian behavior there Doheny.

[hasserl]

Envy?