German Wings Co-Pilot

[Doheny]

Been considering it.


And there you have it. Posts that contain nothing but vague accusations and name calling.

No content. No actual examples.

Vacuous.

Sorry, but you say one thing in one thread and counter it in another. Your posts have a legalistic and Pharisee-like tone and when you get called on it you only have a vacuous response.

We're done here. Have a good Good Friday.

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[bigmike82]

I hope that helps answer your question, and I hope that in offering this response I haven't unnecessarily offended any of my brothers here.

I haven't heard of that perspective before...it makes sense in a lot of ways. Thanks for posting!

[Not a Cook]

I haven't heard of that perspective before...it makes sense in a lot of ways. Thanks for posting!

You're more than welcome!

[bountyhunter]

However, to answer as a Christian (which was my religion of choice back when I believed), I would have to say that the co-pilot went to heaven if he was a born again Christian. As I understand it, the bible says that salvation cannot be lost once it is accepted..

I'd like to see some proof of that in the scripture. If someone rejects Christ, he will lose his salvation.

[Not a Cook]

I'd like to see some proof of that in the scripture. If someone rejects Christ, he will lose his salvation.

Um... where exactly do you find "lose his salvation" in the Scriptures? We who are saved can no more lose our salvation by our own actions than we could first gain it by our actions. This could turn into a big thread, but here are just a couple verses to consider on this topic:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NKJV) Note who it is - God Himself - who will sanctify the saints completely and who will preserve us blameless at Christ's coming.

nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:31-39 (NKJV) Did you notice that no created thing - and people are definitely created things - can separate the saints from the love of God? Not only can we not earn our own salvation, but we can't lose our own salvation.

You may be asking, "How, then, do people claim to know Christ and then later abandon the faith?" The answer is NOT that they lost their salvation. Instead, it is that they never were saved to begin with. They may have sounded like Christians, they may have looked like Christians, but they weren't really Christians. Note that in the parable of the sower (ref. Matthew 13:24-30) Christ tells the angels not to harvest prematurely, because it's difficult to tell the wheat (the saints) from the tares (the lost) until the harvest is ready. Even the holy angels can be fooled - how much more easily can folks like us be fooled into believing someone else is a Christian when they aren't?

In John 2:19 (NKJV) we read,
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Bottom line: if someone denies Christ, that person was never a Christian to begin with. As Polycarp asked, "For eighty-six years, I have served Him [Christ] and He has done me no injustice. How can I blaspheme my King who saved me?" A real follower of Christ will remain faithful to Him, because God is the one who sanctifies us and preserves us (as we see in the 1 Thessalonians 5 passage above).

Praise God (literally!) that He is the one who not only saves us but that He is also the way who preserves us and will deliver us blameless!

[Just Dave]

Sorry Dave, you don't get to decide who is being punished in hell, it's not up to you, and no, you do not know.

I never said I did.

However this is what God has to say about such matters.

Romans 1:28-32

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful;they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Murders inventing ways to do evil, they have no love and no mercy.
Hmmm, where have we seen that before?

[bountyhunter]

Um... where exactly do you find "lose his salvation" in the Scriptures? We who are saved can no more lose our salvation by our own actions than we could first gain it by our actions. This could turn into a big thread

Not from me, because I won't waste my life duplicating the endless "once saved, always saved" that I have heard in so many threads.

So, you basically believe that a person who rejects Christ and becomes a Satan worshipper still has his salvation "locked up" because somebody told him he was "born again" at some point in his life?

OK. Good luck with that.

I never said we saved ourselves through actions, but I guarantee you that you can lose it through actions.

[Not a Cook]

Not from me, because I won't waste my life duplicating the endless "once saved, always saved" that I have heard in so many threads.

So, you basically believe that a person who rejects Christ and becomes a Satan worshipper still has his salvation "locked up" because somebody told him he was "born again" at some point in his life?

OK. Good luck with that.

Nope... you're putting words in my mouth. I thought I clearly indicated that someone that rejects Christ was never saved to begin with. Is that not clear?

Remember again the parable of the sower to which I referred. Wheat and tares can be hard to to tell apart (even for the holy angels) until the harvest. Tares can LOOK like wheat, but they're still tares - always were tares, even when they looked like wheat.

I never said we saved ourselves through actions, but I guarantee you that you can lose it through actions.

You can guarantee it, huh? Instead of guaranteeing it, I'll simply ask you to show me that claim in the Scriptures. It contradicts the verses I already posted.

[hasserl]

Wow, fail all over the place.

Some of you go to great lengths to concoct fanciful doctrines such as Once Saved Always Saved, you're forgetting the basics.

How are we saved? By grace through FAITH. Salvation comes through faith in Christ Jesus, who redeemed us through his death on the cross and his resurrection. FAITH is the key. Place your faith in Christ and you have salvation, place your faith anywhere else, and, well, good luck with that.

Can a person loose their faith? Yes or no? The answer to that is the answer to the question of whether a person can lose their salvation.

Apply this to the co-pilot this thread is about. Was his faith in Christ? Yes, No, or I don't know. There's the answer to the question.

[Doheny]

Wow, fail all over the place.

Some of you go to great lengths to concoct fanciful doctrines such as Once Saved Always Saved, you're forgetting the basics.

How are we saved? By grace through FAITH. Salvation comes through faith in Christ Jesus, who redeemed us through his death on the cross and his resurrection. FAITH is the key. Place your faith in Christ and you have salvation, place your faith anywhere else, and, well, good luck with that.

Can a person loose their faith? Yes or no? The answer to that is the answer to the question of whether a person can lose their salvation.

Apply this to the co-pilot this thread is about. Was his faith in Christ? Yes, No, or I don't know. There's the answer to the question.

As usual, thanks for coming in after the heavy lifting has been done and saving us from ourselves. BTW, you're the guy who said he was a Muslim, right?

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[hasserl]

As usual, thanks for coming in after the heavy lifting has been done and saving us from ourselves. BTW, you're the guy who said he was a Muslim, right?

.

Yes, I did post a link to an internet site that was claiming that. Then I was admonished about it and I apologized for having posted it.

So, that has what bearing on my post?

BTW, I'm still waiting on that apology you owe me. Do I have to remind you? Now you're doing similar to Decoligny here, seems to be a bit of a pattern.

[bountyhunter]

Let's assume the German Wings co-pilot was a believer and as it appears, he intentionally downed the aircraft. Is he in Heaven?

EDIT: What if on the way down he changed his mind, the plane wouldn't respond and he asked for forgiveness?

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You overlook one very possible alternative: HE MAY HAVE BEEN NUTS

Some people have brains that are wired wrong. They have chemical imbalances. We don't know. This is a really good example of why Christ warned us not to judge other people (repeatedly). God knows what's going on and we don't. He will judge him based on all the facts.

[RAMCLAP]

He was not nuts. He planned this. He was not "sick". He was not "nuts". He was EVIL!!! Lot's of people are nuts. They don't kill 150 people for their own gratification.

[Not a Cook]

Wow, fail all over the place.

Some of you go to great lengths to concoct fanciful doctrines such as Once Saved Always Saved, you're forgetting the basics.

How are we saved? By grace through FAITH. Salvation comes through faith in Christ Jesus, who redeemed us through his death on the cross and his resurrection. FAITH is the key. Place your faith in Christ and you have salvation, place your faith anywhere else, and, well, good luck with that.

Can a person loose their faith? Yes or no? The answer to that is the answer to the question of whether a person can lose their salvation.

Apply this to the co-pilot this thread is about. Was his faith in Christ? Yes, No, or I don't know. There's the answer to the question.

Great Scripture references! Thanks for adding to the discussion!

Seriously, though, the basics include the fact that faith is by God's grace and is God's work. Consider John 6:28-29 (NKJV),

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” Faith is God's work in us. We didn't start it, and we're not capable of throwing it away. Faith is God's work in us and it is to His glory. We didn't do anything to save ourselves.

Remember passages like this?
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29 (NKJV)

And I'll risk repeating myself here:
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NKJV) Note who it is - God Himself - who will sanctify the saints completely and who will preserve us blameless at Christ's coming.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:31-39 (NKJV) Did you notice that no created thing - and people are definitely created things - can separate the saints from the love of God? Not only can we not earn our own salvation, but we can't lose our own salvation.

Here's another passage that speaks of those who have been deceived and THINK they're Christians, but they aren't. They never were.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) Notice that Christ didn't say anything to the effect of, "Well, I used to know you, but then you lost your salvation... depart from me." He very clearly will tell these folks "I never knew you; depart from me." These are folks who were never saved.

In John 2:19 (NKJV) we read,
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. Note that those who "went out" did so to manifest that they were not of the saved - not that they went out and in doing so "lost their salvation".

There is a reason why Peter exhorts us, not to make sure we don't lose our salvation, but rather to be even more diligent to make your call and election sure (ref. 2 Peter 1:10b).

This so-often comes up because folks want to presume that someone who "fell away" from the faith was a Christian to begin with, but such were never saved. Those who are saved will persevere by God's grace because it is God Who (as the 1 Thessalonians passage indicates) will preserve His saints blameless. Again, faith is God's work in us, not our own. He is the One to Whom belongs all the credit and glory, hallelujah!

There are other passages I could point to, but I'd appreciate it if you'd actually discuss the Scriptures in your posts rather than simply write things to the effect of, "Wow, fail all over the place."

[asocial penguin]

[B][I]You may be asking, "How, then, do people claim to know Christ and then later abandon the faith?" The answer is NOT that they lost their salvation. Instead, it is that they never were saved to begin with. They may have sounded like Christians, they may have looked like Christians, but they weren't really Christians. Note that in the parable of the sower (ref. Matthew 13:24-30) Christ tells the angels not to harvest prematurely, because it's difficult to tell the wheat (the saints) from the tares (the lost) until the harvest is ready. Even the holy angels can be fooled - how much more easily can folks like us be fooled into believing someone else is a Christian when they aren't?

Nice. I guess some of us feel the need to just make things up that we could not possibly know when confronted with a conflict in what we have been told to believe and what actually is.

I attended church and private Christian schools since 1st grade. I believed everything I was fed for years and only started questioning my beliefs when I started college. I BELIEVED because I didn't know better and when I, in my innocence, accepted Christ as my savior I meant it with all my heart. I lived my life for Christ and witnessed to others (converted my own mother, in fact) for over 10 years. Now, because I have grown up, developed my critical thinking skills, and decided religion was a control system and a farce, you insinuate that I was never saved in the first place in order to preserve the integrity of your holy book. Because to admit that I could have been sincere in my early life and, in fact, was saved is to invite the possibility that either a non believer can still go to heaven or that one can lose their salvation once saved.