LASD and the .40 s&w

[Quiet]

Add that to the lack "superior" performance over the 9mm, it doesn't merit adding another caliber.

I heard this is also the reason why the San Bernardinio County Sheriff Department does not issue/authorize .40S&W.

San Bernardino County issues the 9x19mm Glock 17 and the .45ACP Glock 21 (deputies choose which of the two they want).

[OneHotDog]

As a civilian, I own a .40 and .45. I've never ever made the mistake of putting .40 in a .45 magazine (they don't even feel the same in the dark). Don't you guys carry pre-loaded magazines with you on patrol? So, there should never be a need to hand load a magazine during a high stress situation. Even if you did, wouldn't you carry the correct round only? I mean, really, its not rocket science, or brain surgery.

[Ron-Solo]

Well, when I worked the field, I carried extra ammo for the guns my partners carried, as well as my own guns.

I've seen it happen in range settings, both LE and public, so it does happen from time to time. I wouldn't say it is "common" and that is not the primary reason LASD doesn't allow the .40 SW. In the tests our range staff conducted, the .40SW just didn't impress that much. In many of the tests, the 9mm outperformed it hands down. In some of the tests, the 9mm equaled the .45ACP.

A lot of things happen when you are under stress. The last thing you need us too many variables.

My first shooting happened so quickly that I don't remember drawing my gun. It was just "there" when I needed it. I specifically remember pulling the trigger three times but only hearing two reports. I thought I had a misfire, but all three rounds hit the target. (41 feet in the dark with a moving target)

Never say never. It isn't rocket science, that follows laws of physics. Gun fighting follows the laws of physics, emotion, chance, and luck, not to mention the laws of the state and public opinion.

Until you've been to the "Two Way Range" it can be difficult to understand.

[Morning]

Well, when I worked the field, I carried extra ammo for the guns my partners carried, as well as my own guns.

I've seen it happen in range settings, both LE and public, so it does happen from time to time. I wouldn't say it is "common" and that is not the primary reason LASD doesn't allow the .40 SW. In the tests our range staff conducted, the .40SW just didn't impress that much. In many of the tests, the 9mm outperformed it hands down. In some of the tests, the 9mm equaled the .45ACP.

A lot of things happen when you are under stress. The last thing you need us too many variables.

My first shooting happened so quickly that I don't remember drawing my gun. It was just "there" when I needed it. I specifically remember pulling the trigger three times but only hearing two reports. I thought I had a misfire, but all three rounds hit the target. (41 feet in the dark with a moving target)

Never say never. It isn't rocket science, that follows laws of physics. Gun fighting follows the laws of physics, emotion, chance, and luck, not to mention the laws of the state and public opinion.

Until you've been to the "Two Way Range" it can be difficult to understand.

Is that assuming the 9mm JHP expands reliably? a .45 is about 1/3 bigger than 9mm so i would think it creates at least 1/3 bigger temporary cavity, but as you said you don't remember drawing your gun so i guess things doesn't always work as we imagine in the "real world".

and... what happened to the target, was he incapacitated?

[Ron-Solo]

is that assuming the 9mm JHP expands reliably? a .45 is about 1/3 bigger than 9mm so i would think it creates at least 1/3 bigger temporary cavity, but as you said you don't remember drawing your gun so i guess things doesn't always work as we imagine in the "real world".

and... what happened to the target, was he incapacitated?

They did a lot of tests under a variety of circumstances with the various rounds in realistic test mediums, not just ballistic gel.


And that particular shooting was with a Smith & Wesson Model 66 with a 4" barrel and Federal 110 gr JHP. He dropped like a sack of rocks. The abdominal round entered 2" right of his navel. The hydrostatic shock ruptured his spleen, destroyed his large intestine, punctured the vena cava, and lodged in his spine. The other two rounds were minor in his arm and shoulder. The paramedics jump started him twice in the field and the doctors jump started him on the operating table.

He survived because of outstanding emergency medical care by two of the best paramedics I have had the honor to know. I rolled on many calls with them, and they give everyone their best possible care, which was exemplary.

Shot placement is the key to stopping a threat. A .38, 9mm, .40, or .45 isn't going to stop anyone if it doesn't hit in the right spot. The myth about a shoulder hit with a .45 stopping a man in his tracks is a lot of urban legend.

LASD has had shootings with the 9mm just above the navel where the hydrostatic shock ruptured the arteries coming out of the top of the heart.

The .45 is a great round, but each has it's advantages. The .40 just doesn't seem to measure up to all the hype. My primary carry gun is 9mm, but I also have a .45 that I carry sometimes. Being retired, I can carry anything I want. I have total confidence in the 9mm Ranger T series round.

[Morning]

If the 9mm performance did not merit adding .40 as an approved caliber, why did lapd approve it? Surely they must done the same tests, but i dont think im looking for a logical answer here. I understand different departments have different politics at play, different chiefs/sheriffs like different things, maybe that's why?

Kinda like how how Lasd allows hk usp,sigs. Lapd can carry glocks, 1911's

[Ron-Solo]

If the 9mm performance did not merit adding .40 as an approved caliber, why did lapd approve it? Surely they must done the same tests, but i dont think im looking for a logical answer here. I understand different departments have different politics at play, different chiefs/sheriffs like different things, maybe that's why?

Kinda like how how Lasd allows hk usp,sigs. Lapd can carry glocks, 1911's

Two agencies can conduct similar tests and intrepret the results different ways. I remember when LAPD couldn't carry hollow points, and we had been carrying them for years.

[Kestryll]

hotdog, I suggest you reread the rules of this forum and keep them in mind.

It saves me the the time of kicking you out of this forum.

[BigDogatPlay]

Back on topic....

Bullets do not always act as we think they should when they come into contact with living flesh and bone, cover or concealment. I've see .357 magnum semi jacketed hollowpoints (no question about energy capability with those) barely expand to the jacket material and .38 +P expand nearly to the base of the jacket. Same for the various semi-auto calibers. Each use of defensive ammo can result in a completely unique result. To Ron-Solo's sad story above I could say I am disappointed that a .40 to the center of the suspect's brow did not render him lifeless, but I can also say that I am not surprised. Stuff happens, and each situation is unique.

Testing, as shown above and in the protocol developed by the FBI is a reasonable predictor of real world performance. But it is still not the real world. And, as alluded to above, different evaluators may interpret the results differently. There actually is an excellent article comparing 100 popular self defense handgun rounds in this month's edition of American Rifleman. Might be worth taking a look at that, although I don't see the article in the online edition yet.

The real world is the true test. The large agencies in Los Angeles likely log more officer involved shootings in a year than many states combined and as such represent, perhaps, the best current data pool on ammunition performance. LASD is, so far as I know, still issuing the 147 grain Ranger T in 9mm, and there seems to be no need or desire to change from that. I've read of similar results with both Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot in comparable weights.

[Ron-Solo]

OP, I think you have posed some good honest questions. Hopefully the answers here have helped.

[OneHotDog]

hotdog, I suggest you reread the rules of this forum and keep them in mind.

It saves me the the time of kicking you out of this forum.

Which rule do you think I broke? And do you think calling me "junior" is okay?

[OneHotDog]

hotdog, I suggest you reread the rules of this forum and keep them in mind.

It saves me the the time of kicking you out of this forum.

Which rule do you think I broke? And do you think calling me "junior" is okay?

You don't like it when someone disagrees with you. Don't bother banning me. ESAD.

[Ron-Solo]

[Kestryll]

Which rule do you think I broke? And do you think calling me "junior" is okay?

ETA: You don't like it when someone disagrees with you. Don't bother banning me. ESAD.

Trolling, baiting, thread-jacking.

I pretty sure about the rules since I wrote them.

Okay, well it seems i don't have to worry about you anymore.

Goodbye

[skyscraper]

I had to look up what "ESAD" means, and Wow, what a toughguy. Sorry Kestryll I just had to have a giggle about it