On 60 Minutes last night

[Joewy]

Most of what these people believe in as far as constitutionality of various things like police and taxes and freedom of movement is correct. There is no basis for most of it in the Constitution. Most of it didnt even exist untill the end of the 1800's.
They have valid claims.
But as you get more and more people living closer together you need some sort of rules to keep the ones who will be trouble makers in line.
Thats fine. But the whole concept of that has gone overbooard 180 degrees since the 1970's. Pretty much everything is illegal today. Unless you live a Ken and Barbie lifestyle, are in debt up to your eyeballs and have a nice green grass well cut front lawn, you are a sociopath and are treated with contempt by the authorities.
Not the way it is supposed to be.

[Samuelx]

To all those supporting this movement - so are you condoning the murder of LEOs? (cause you're certainly not saying anything against it...)

[fullrearview]

Most of what these people believe in as far as constitutionality of various things like police and taxes and freedom of movement is correct. There is no basis for most of it in the Constitution. Most of it didnt even exist untill the end of the 1800's.
They have valid claims.
But as you get more and more people living closer together you need some sort of rules to keep the ones who will be trouble makers in line.
Thats fine. But the whole concept of that has gone overbooard 180 degrees since the 1970's. Pretty much everything is illegal today. Unless you live a Ken and Barbie lifestyle, are in debt up to your eyeballs and have a nice green grass well cut front lawn, you are a sociopath and are treated with contempt by the authorities.
Not the way it is supposed to be.

That's fine. But the state and local communities have the right to establish LE, and they only enforce state and local laws.

BTW, if you use a public system to travel from point A to point B, such as a roadway, you should be paying taxes through licensing.

[Falconis]

As far as I am concerned, anyone condoning, supporting, or even minimizing these people or even giving that appearance are no friends of ours here.

[1911su16b870]

We had a warning for LE in our area about a soveriegn citizen who was planning on coming into different officers homes and arresting them. I can't speak for all of them, but the ones I've come across are dangerous.

That would end with one less soverign citizen...just the same as if he went into any calguners home attempting to do the same thing!

[Joewy]

That's fine. But the state and local communities have the right to establish LE, and they only enforce state and local laws.

BTW, if you use a public system to travel from point A to point B, such as a roadway, you should be paying taxes through licensing.

Im not against LE. Not by a long shot. I think very few people are.

Yes, LE is a local issue. But like these people say it has legitamacy thru Incorporation. Which is also true. However the incorporated comunities break most laws of incorporation by forcing the people to do things that they did not vote for but are mandated by another government. Either the state or Federal.

About the Drivers licensing. I do agree with it but there is no legitamacy for it at all. So Why? The roads are maintained and funded by fuel taxes. Most DL funds go towards paying only for the increase in bureaucracy. Not for roads.

Communities and states have no rights. None at all. They have only authority given to them by the people. At least thats what the constitution says. And the Constitution is the Law. Isnt it??

What Im trying to say is that a lot of what they say is factual. However it is illogical. Could society work without rules. Not likely. There would be no stability. You need stability to prosper.

[fullrearview]

Im not against LE. Not by a long shot. I think very few people are.

Yes, LE is a local issue. But like these people say it has legitamacy thru Incorporation. Which is also true. However the incorporated comunities break most laws of incorporation by forcing the people to do things that they did not vote for but are mandated by another government. Either the state or Federal.

About the Drivers licensing. I do agree with it but there is no legitamacy for it at all. So Why? The roads are maintained and funded by fuel taxes. Most DL funds go towards paying only for the increase in bureaucracy. Not for roads.

Communities and states have no rights. None at all. They have only authority given to them by the people. At least thats what the constitution says. And the Constitution is the Law. Isnt it??

What Im trying to say is that a lot of what they say is factual. However it is illogical. Could society work without rules. Not likely. There would be no stability. You need stability to prosper.

I didn't say you were Anti LEO and I hope I didn't imply it. Like I said about the second video I posted... He sounds completely normal, and wants us to follow the constitution... I agree with that. But some of these people think they can declare their own body a country...WTF??? Of course that's not all of them. As with most anyone, I am cautious around them, and non LEO should be too.

[Joewy]

Well for the most part I find your posts fair and meaningful. You seem like an honest Liberty minded LEO. We need more like you. And no I dont think you inplied anything. But others were.
I like to study history and especially Constitutional and political history. SAo I follow things like this.
But just because someone believes in Freedom and Liberty dosent make them a criminal. I laughed when I saw that Posse comitatus bumper sticker and the reference that the LEO made of it. One of my ex Senators had that on his truck. Ive also seen him on numerous times with a Rifle or 3.
The fake drivers liscence and plates are a joke too. how silly can people get. But think about it. In many places the police wont bother illegals who have neither. They wont even take their cars anymore. So where is the legitmacy of doing it to an American Citizen... If the Law is the Law then where is the Law?? It is for everyone. Isnt it. Unless there is politics involved.

Those two guys murdered someone. Its not important weather it was a LEO or someone walking down the street. They should be punished. End of story. But you dont go after everyone else who may either agree with their politics or happen to have a funny bumper sticker. There is no Law in that. Just Emotion and thoughts of revenge.

[SparrowHanger]

Sure enough someone on the 2A forum claims that there is no Sovereign Citizen movement and it is nothing more than a "false flag operation" slandering the likes of law abiding folk.

Sounds like a false flag op run by legislators, judges, cops, and prosecutors who want to run roughshod over the rights of non-violent, non-criminal, civil rights proponents by slandering the frack out of us. Apparently "right-wing militia nutjobs" became too passe. I have no doubt that criminals attack the aforementioned classes for personal (including but not limited to mentally ill) reasons, but as an organized political terrorism movement? Give me a break. All of us here on CGN are next if they get away with this BS.

[epilepticninja]

Stopped one for a infraction in the mid 90s. Started with the sovereign citizen, you and the courts don't have any authority over me stuff and refused to sign the cite. After explaining that he could either go to jail now, or walk away after signing a piece of paper that he claimed had no authority over him anyway, he signed the cite.

Same deal, except it was a female who blew thru a stop sign on her...bicycle (yeah, I know, but it was a slow day, what can I say.) So I end up going to court on it. She had even called the DA's office saying that I had no legal right to stop her as she recognized no laws in this country. So they had an ADA go with me to represent the county. I gave my spiel to the judge, and ol' girl basically gave him the same "you can't do this to me" mess. Judge told her to pay, or go forthwith for contempt. Needless to say, she got a free ride to the jail. It was amazing how one small bicycle cite caused so much drama. It even made it in the local papers. Weird group of people.

[TRICKSTER]

Sure enough someone on the 2A forum claims that there is no Sovereign Citizen movement and it is nothing more than a "false flag operation" slandering the likes of law abiding folk.

The more I read the 2A and OT forum, the more I think I should be investing more money in ALCOA Inc. stock.

[Uriah02]

At the very least if they want to be soveriegn then they need to stay off of taxpayer funded roads and not use any of our services... I've never heard of this before... sounds like a neo-nazi version of liberatarianism.

[fullrearview]

Well for the most part I find your posts fair and meaningful. You seem like an honest Liberty minded LEO. We need more like you. And no I dont think you inplied anything. But others were.

Well, thank you... I always try to put myself in the other persons shoes and like I said before, prove innocence as much as guilt.

I like to study history and especially Constitutional and political history. SAo I follow things like this.
But just because someone believes in Freedom and Liberty dosent make them a criminal. I laughed when I saw that Posse comitatus bumper sticker and the reference that the LEO made of it. One of my ex Senators had that on his truck. Ive also seen him on numerous times with a Rifle or 3.

I agree... But I look at it like any contact. I'm on high alert, until I know how things are going to pan out. Just like if I see a dude with gang tats, I know to give him a few extra steps. I will still be polite and courteous until he decides to take it to the next level.

The fake drivers liscence and plates are a joke too. how silly can people get. But think about it. In many places the police wont bother illegals who have neither. They wont even take their cars anymore. So where is the legitmacy of doing it to an American Citizen... If the Law is the Law then where is the Law?? It is for everyone. Isnt it. Unless there is politics involved.

That stuff pisses me off. I know a guy who got sent back to the jails for "targeting" illegals and towing their cars. The farmers complained and he was yanked from patrol. Only problem is, 99% of the population in the area were farm workers. Like you said, the law is the law and should applied equally.

Those two guys murdered someone. Its not important weather it was a LEO or someone walking down the street. They should be punished. End of story. But you dont go after everyone else who may either agree with their politics or happen to have a funny bumper sticker. There is no Law in that. Just Emotion and thoughts of revenge.

I can agree with that... All I am saying is, I will take extra caution when dealing with the individuals... I wont treat them any different, just be more cautious... They obviously pay close attention to LE tactics and know our weaknesses.

In bold.

[lavgrunt]

I'm sure ATF, DOJ, FBI, CTU etc. are having a field day reading this thread............

What a complete travesty and poor reflection on firearms owners............Nice way to portray 'us' as mainstream..........Good job...........

BTW, sovereign citizens are a bunch of treasonous cowards..........Let them move to Somalia !!!

[Falconis]

I'm sure ATF, DOJ, FBI, CTU etc. are having a field day reading this thread............

What a complete travesty and poor reflection on firearms owners............Nice way to portray 'us' as mainstream..........Good job...........

BTW, sovereign citizens are a bunch of treasonous cowards..........Let them move to Somalia !!!

I'll chip in for the cargo ship.