Anti LEO

[Falconis]

JD I think you're being blinded by your belief in this cause. If you want us to support it fully the way you want, ok fine. I can stop contributing here and take my support and everything that comes with it somewhere else.

Even if 100 of us from the same department were to stand up and bang the drums and all that, what are you going to do when 100 of us are disciplined 1 at a time? They may not fire us all, but they sure as hell can make our lives miserable. I really don't think we HAVE to go with your plan and risk all our livlihoods in that manner yet as there are other avenues available to us. But I would also like to know who else is risking what? If I was being the suspicious type here, I would say you are hellbent on getting a cop fired more than you are supporting what we do. Trust me, all the cops in California won't make much of a difference, and it's doubtful we could get all of them onboard.

There is a difference to standing up and taking unneccesary actions.

You say you realize everything you say you realize, but I think you fail to realize the unneccsary hardships this would create with people. Are you willing to say 1 officer getting fired is worth his livlihood, marriage, life, and the hardships he would have to endure if he took your path? Although I would applaud your zeal for this, your reasoning is what I am questioning right now. If a person would do as you want, I feel he or she would have to do it out of his own personal feelings and not because he was being badgered by outside forces.

You have been given the legal reasonings, policies, and everything else as to why this shouldn't be done, yet you persist. Proof has been shown to you as to how and why things are done.

Do you truely feel the LEO's here aren't doing enough and should just leave this forum altogether?

[Falconis]

Ohhh and I would suggest going the route I suggested earlier. Get a POA or even a Chief or Sherriff involved. That way you achieve the same result and no one endures any hardships.

I think Oaklander is meeting with a Sheriff next week. Something you may want to contact him about.

[retired]

I get this.

I understand that losing your job in a competitive field is frightening.
I realize that when you speak out, you don't simply put yourself at risk, but you risk the livelihoods of your family and sometimes your friends.
I get that the nail which stands proud gets hammered down first.

I understand that you (the R&F LEOs who frequent CGN) know what's right. I know that they venerate the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I know that they also care deeply for their families and friends.

I have no doubt.

The question is - when are they willing to stand up? When are they willing to stop operating the levers and the gears of oppression? When are they willing to tell their Masters, "No!"?

It's easy for the Brass to harass and fire one officer who publicly disagrees with them. How easy is it to fire 100? Strength in numbers. Unions should have explained this the day you sent in your first check for dues.

LEOs aren't the only folks who might potentially lose jobs in this fight. There are plenty of folks stretching they're necks in service of The Cause. They know that should the be caught at work advocating for 2A rights, they'll be escorted out of the building. Their families are on the line, too.

Rosa Parks risked time in jail for a simple ride on a bus......



Inevitably, the question will arise...."what have I put on the line?"

Answer: "Everything."

Fight.

or don't.

But if you're not gonna fight for us - at least get the heck out of the way.

Re the bolded: for my former dept., that would be real easy. If they believed those 100 deputies violated dept. policy, they would begin an IA investigation. The deputies would have their badge and gun taken away and reassigned to some paper job like medical records etc. for however long the investigation took. So, during that 6 months, 1 year or 2 year investigation to determine if they violated policy, they are no longer leos. They are living under a cloud of stress, which of course will affect their family life too.

If they are jail deputies waiting to go to patrol, they will now be behind everyone else who continued their career. If they were patrol deputies and were expecting to transfer to another station, DB spot or on a promotion list, they will be bypassed and even if they are cleared after the investigation, their careers will be affected. If they are a supervisor or management level (Lt. & above), their careers are probably at an end. Even if cleared, that is the rank they will more than likely remain at while probably working EMs 70 miles from home. Especially under the Sheriff they have now.

To make it better, say it was 200 or 300 who decided to step up and speak out (You know, that "strength in numbers" thing you said). That is a small amount of people for the largest dept. of its kind in the country, but since there is a limited number of people who work IA, it would probably take years to complete the investigations of each and everyone.

Some of these people might even come into contact with people they had arrested or if custody deputies, worked around. This could occur while alone or with their families. If the "former" bad guy (s) was intent on doing something, there really wouldn't be a lot non leo could do to protect him or his family since he wouldn't be carrying a gun or badge while the investigation was ongoing.

I mean this with no offense intended, but you really do not understand; the above is the reality that would occur. Here is a much simpler example. You get into a big argument with your neighbor and you cuss him out and give him the finger. Even if he knew where you worked, I doubt if your work would even care to listen to him complain about your behavior.

I can't speak for any dept. other than the one I worked for, but if you worked for it and that same argument occurred and your neighbor knew who you worked for, you would be in big trouble after he called in. That is because you would have probably violated one of the dept. policies and an investigation would begin. You could be suspended without pay for cussing out your neighbor ultimately. I don't see that occurring in most private jobs.

[Jack L]

by Samuelx

"Btw, the anti-LE sentiment I see here, other places online, and in the real world from otherwise "normal" people is absolutely Pathetic."

I worked alongside LEOs my whole career. I saw this attitude everyday. I feel I am a part of a different generation who viewed LE 180 degrees different than much of society does today. When I post a note that explains you have to do a LEOs job to understand it, I get hammered by 90% of other posters on how LEOs are overpaid and dishonest and egomaniacs and on and on. To me, a silver haired senior, it's troubling.

[yzErnie]

The question is - when are they willing to stand up? When are they willing to stop operating the levers and the gears of oppression? When are they willing to tell their Masters, "No!"?

Inevitably, the question will arise...."what have I put on the line?"

Answer: "Everything."

Fight.

or don't.

But if you're not gonna fight for us - at least get the heck out of the way.

With all due respect, I think what concerns me the most about your comments above is the fact that you are blanketly insinuating that LEOs are not compasionate to gun ownership and to the 2A and puppets for the administrations. I believe that is highly inaccurate and while folks are sometimes reluctant to voice an opinion for fear of retalitory actions, LE as a whole is not against the cause. I can only speak for me when I say the overwhelming majority of the folks I work with are just the opposite of what you are saying. To say we as LE 'are in your way' is without merit.

I cannot think of one department that would allow any on duty advocating of a political cause. Like it or not, those matters HAVE to remain seperated from our on-duty activities and as had already been said, we cannot (and should not) show a bias while performing on-duty activities. Departments also have policies governing on and off duty behavior and activities.

I'm not opposed to, and frequently do, champion the 2A cause while off duty. We also donate regularly to the causes for the protection of our 2A and other gun right protections. I am very lucky to work for a department that has pretty good views on gun ownership and the 2A. Heck, they even allow my wife and I to own a gun sales business on the side.

[Lrchops]

People largely reject authority in these current times because the government has turned society against law enforcement. Ever since the misinterpretation of the Rodney King and OJ cases due to hocus pocus attorneys and media. WHat I mean is the overall entitlement attitude everyone has is out of control. We are in a weak passive society where the attitude is everyone is a winner, there are no losers, everyone gets a trophy for weak performance, there are no enforceable job standards. Everyone is equal. Affirmative action hiring ruined the tone of this country. People are hired for jobs based on race not on merit. It is everywhere, in all career fields and on all playing fields!

I believe this is why people are anti-LEO in attitude, not just with one simple AW issue, but with everything. LEO's largely get pissed on everyday they hit the field.

[HIG541]

People largely reject authority in these current times because the government has turned society against law enforcement. Ever since the misinterpretation of the Rodney King and OJ cases due to hocus pocus attorneys and media. WHat I mean is the overall entitlement attitude everyone has is out of control. We are in a weak passive society where the attitude is everyone is a winner, there are no losers, everyone gets a trophy for weak performance, there are no enforceable job standards. Everyone is equal. Affirmative action hiring ruined the tone of this country. People are hired for jobs based on race not on merit. It is everywhere, in all career fields and on all playing fields!

I believe this is why people are anti-LEO in attitude, not just with one simple AW issue, but with everything. LEO's largely get pissed on everyday they hit the field.

Dude, I hate to be the one to say it, but the way that you make sweeping, blanket statements like the one above completely and utterly nullifies any point that you are trying to make. You sound just as bad as the LEO bashers and in the process you give LEOs a bad name.

[Notorious]

Government employees, while on the job, have NO 1st Amendment Rights. It is established case law. Our counsel reviewed it and issued that opinion. Of course, we can still speak on something of public concern regarding a public figure... then we get to face the consequences. If you are on the clock, you follow the rules. You might not like it, but you follow it. If you don't like the rules, don't work there. It's very simple.

I happen to like where I am, but I support the cause when I can. I have no problem telling people to protect themselves however they can and however they want within the law. If that includes firearms, fine by me.

However, if it comes to me sticking my neck out in uniform for something that violated poilcy or law, just so you feel better about me as a supporter, I would tell you to pound sand. I don't do it to please anyone but myself.

[cacop]

I am not going to speak on any issue that my department does not want me to speak about. On or off duty. The cost is too high.

Now I can donate money or join organizations that do it for me. They cannot prevent me from being part of the NRA, etc.

My POA and even PORAC does not want to get involved with any issue that is going to detract from their goal of ensuring we have a good working environment. My POA is reluctant to endorse city counsel members for office. What makes you think they are going to take positions on gun control? Espeically when that makes for a hostile envirnment in this liberal state to try to get better working conditions for us.

You feed your family, I will feed mine.

I will support my causes in a protected manner.

[Falconis]

Dude, I hate to be the one to say it, but the way that you make sweeping, blanket statements like the one above completely and utterly nullifies any point that you are trying to make. You sound just as bad as the LEO bashers and in the process you give LEOs a bad name.

Whether you like it or not, there are truths to his statements. You can not deny there is an entitlement attitude in this country that has rapidly developed over the last 30 or so years.

Can't deny a lot of people get hired due to race and race alone. I have seen both people that are good and bad get hired because of it, but more bad than good. I think in California they recently outlawed affirmative action, but I know it is still practiced. I am all for leaving out the race box on apps.

A lot of companies and public entities do get sued a lot for trying to enforce any semblence of job standards. Look up Gloria Allred's record.

I've also personally seen the everyone is a winner policy enforced. Friend's kid got a trophy for just participating in a baseball tournament.

His statements may not be popular, but they are true.

Only thing I will say is that not all of society is like this and in some places it is more pervasive than others. The entitlement attitude does seem to be more and more prevalant though.

Back to the original topic, I would have to agree with the entitlment attitude being a huge factor in anti LEO sentiments these days. I hear it every day I am at work with why me, I don't deserve this, why am I being arrested. Nevermind they violated the penal code. Although I still don't understand why parolees yell out for their mama when they are being arrested...

[yzErnie]

Dude, I hate to be the one to say it, but the way that you make sweeping, blanket statements like the one above completely and utterly nullifies any point that you are trying to make. You sound just as bad as the LEO bashers and in the process you give LEOs a bad name.

Unfortunately, the truth is sometimes brutal and many times difficult to accept. The harsh reality is America has turned into a bunch of pussies who cry foul when held accountable for their actions. I call it the "Little League Mentality" because even when you are a loser, you are made to believe you are a winner.

Society has tolerated this type of behavior and mentality for a long time but in the community where I work, I see the pendulum swinging back the right way. These people are tired of seeing Joey Dirtbag roaming the streets and stealing their stuff and are doing something about it...in the right way by being attentive to their neighborhoods.

[Notorious]

The thug rap ghetto fabulous trend in our society has fostered and glamorized the cop hater and it's going to take a lot to change it around.

[HIG541]

I have seen both people that are good and bad get hired because of it, but more bad than good.

Only thing I will say is that not all of society is like this and in some places it is more pervasive than others....

you express the points much better because you include some qualifications (and by the way, i mostly agree with what you are positing). like i was saying, lrchops had some opinions that were valid in nature, but the way he expresses his opinions are so sweeping and biased that he invalidates his own points. he comes across just as biased and ignorant as the leo bashers. Really look at what he wrote. . .

[Falconis]

I read it, but I also keep in mind we're just blowing off steam here and not writing a deposition. I'll admit, some of my ramblings with my friends get that basic.

[HIG541]

I hear that man, blowing off steam is important, i totally get that. . . just remember that when it sounds like someone is bashing a leo, they are just blowing off steam too